Backup Generator in Condominium Building wiring personal use outlets

Condoowner

Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Engineer
The backup generator is connected separately to an EM transfer switch/panel and a Standby transfer switch/panel. The generator is 250KW and the connected load is 241Va. The standby panel powers elevators, lights, machine rooms, pumps, some common area electrical outlets. Some residents would like to wire personal use outlets in their garage space in the shared common area garage under the building. The most convenient circuits to tap these outlet are on the standby power panel. Is it permissible to wire personal use outlets in a building common area to a circuit that is supported by the backup generator?
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
While some may think this is prohibited by 210.25, I don't think it does. I think a bigger problem may be the condo laws and covenants as theses outlets would connected to the "house meter" (even when on normal power) and people would be passing the cost of that power to the HOA. A good example might be EV charging that would be passed on to the HOA. Seems like some owners would have an issue with that. I would.
 

Condoowner

Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Engineer
Would it not be prohibited by article 701 as the personal outlets would not have separate load shedding from the legally required standby circuits?
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,Ga
Occupation
Field coordinator/ technical support
While some may think this is prohibited by 210.25, I don't think it does. I think a bigger problem may be the condo laws and covenants as theses outlets would connected to the "house meter" (even when on normal power) and people would be passing the cost of that power to the HOA. A good example might be EV charging that would be passed on to the HOA. Seems like some owners would have an issue with that. I would.
And I’m betting that’s what they are wanting it for.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Would it not be prohibited by article 701 as the personal outlets would not have separate load shedding from the legally required standby circuits?
You indicated that the panel to be used was connected to the "standby" ATS/panel which would be Art. 702 and free to connect anything that the genset will support. Typically you have 3 ATSs-700 loads, 701 loads and 702 loads.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
You indicated that the panel to be used was connected to the "standby" ATS/panel which would be Art. 702 and free to connect anything that the genset will support. Typically you have 3 ATSs-700 loads, 701 loads and 702 loads.
The OP mentions that the elevator is one of the standby loads. Wouldn't that be a 701 load, if not a 700 load?
 

Condoowner

Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Engineer
There are only 2 ATS/panels. I checked he electrical drawings The Emergency panel drawing notes reference NEC 700. The Standby panel drawing notes reference NEC 701.
 

Condoowner

Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Engineer
I think 701 would outright not allow these personal outlets . If it does would it require they have separate independent load shedding for that circuit alone?
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Sounds like the generator panel is in the garage area, getting ckts from that panel would be easier than getting a circuit from each individual panel.
Some resident said, 'why can't we get a circuit from that panel, its right there in the same area?" and now you have to explain why not.

Even if this could be done as pointed out, there would be no control over the load, right off I could see EVs plugged in.
 

Condoowner

Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Engineer
The panels are actually on the 2nd floor and are not easily accessible. This is the reason for the request to wire to available circuits in the garage. However the easiest circuits are on the standby panel governed by 701. I am trying to determine if it can just be put to bed that 701 does not allow a personal use optional load to be connected to a standby (701) circuit.

I agree with the comment no control over the load and someone will plug an EV in eventually.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
If I were a gambling man, which I am not, but if I were, I might wager that the standby system falls under article 702, not 701. Depending on the location (i.e., jurisdiction) and the height of the building (i.e., number of floors above or below grade level), an elevator might not be classified as a "legally required standby load." If I am right, then this is not a code issue at all. It's an HOA issue, as others have already pointed out.
 

Condoowner

Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Engineer
The electrical drawings specifically cite NEC 701 (note 110 standby ATS). See attached drawing.
 

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Condoowner

Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Engineer
Considering the electrical drawings reference NEC 701 for the standby panel can it be assumed it must conform to 701? If this is the case if an optional load is connected to this panel it would be necessary to have load shedding to protect the legally required circuits?
 

Condoowner

Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Engineer
I am still looking for an answer to the question. The standby panel drawing references NEC 701. My understanding is that if any optional loads are added to this panel it would be necessary to have load shedding to protect the legally required circuits.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I am still looking for an answer to the question. The standby panel drawing references NEC 701. My understanding is that if any optional loads are added to this panel it would be necessary to have load shedding to protect the legally required circuits.
I wouldn't put anything except the required loads on the generator. If they want to charge their Tesla, have management install an article 700 standby generator.
 

d0nut

Senior Member
Location
Omaha, NE
Based on the list of loads you gave, it appears there are items that would not be permitted on an Article 701 - Legally Required Standby System. This is why people are speculating that the system is actually an Article 702 - Optional Standby System and that the reference to 701 may be a typo. You can put anything on an Article 702 system; there are no limitations. Emergency systems (700) get people out of the building, legally required standby systems (701) help fire fighters and rescuers do their jobs and requires a municipal, state, federal, or other governing agency to tell you to provide power to that system, optional standby (702) is for whatever you want on a generator.

The concern with putting tenant loads on a house panel is that they will not be paying for the power they are using.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Based on the list of loads you gave, it appears there are items that would not be permitted on an Article 701 - Legally Required Standby System. This is why people are speculating that the system is actually an Article 702 - Optional Standby System and that the reference to 701 may be a typo. You can put anything on an Article 702 system; there are no limitations. Emergency systems (700) get people out of the building, legally required standby systems (701) help fire fighters and rescuers do their jobs and requires a municipal, state, federal, or other governing agency to tell you to provide power to that system, optional standby (702) is for whatever you want on a generator.

The concern with putting tenant loads on a house panel is that they will not be paying for the power they are using.
D'oh, I meant article 702!! My bad.
tenor.gif
 

Condoowner

Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Engineer
I am curious what loads would not be covered or permitted by 701. As previous comment the drawings do reference NEC 701 on this panel.
The panel loads are: Elevators, Gen fuel pump, Fire pump Jockey pump, Garage Exhaust, Domestic water pump boost, limited lighting in common areas, limited receptacles in common areas, receptacle in limited common area on each floor. No power is provided to owner occupied spaces.
My guess is the Domestic water, limited lighting and outlets would be covered in 701 as loads necessary to assist rescue or firefighting operations. The fact that they are on the same panel as elevators, Fire pump jockey, exhaust etc it is hard how they are considered optional. Opinions?
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I am curious what loads would not be covered or permitted by 701. As previous comment the drawings do reference NEC 701 on this panel.
The panel loads are: Elevators, Gen fuel pump, Fire pump Jockey pump, Garage Exhaust, Domestic water pump boost, limited lighting in common areas, limited receptacles in common areas, receptacle in limited common area on each floor. No power is provided to owner occupied spaces.
My guess is the Domestic water, limited lighting and outlets would be covered in 701 as loads necessary to assist rescue or firefighting operations. The fact that they are on the same panel as elevators, Fire pump jockey, exhaust etc it is hard how they are considered optional. Opinions?
I would think that the fire pump would be a 700 load. Maybe not the jockey pump, but the two usually go together like Mutt and Jeff so it may just go along for the ride.
 

Condoowner

Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Engineer
The fire pump is diesel. I agree with you I would think the Jockey pump should be on 700. But it clearly is on 701 panel.
 
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