"Bad" brands of panels

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

sfav8r

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
I was just looking for items to add to a building safety inspection check list and stumbled across the site below:

http://www.inspect-ny.com/electric/ElecPanelInsp.htm

I was surprised to see the following listed under "Problem-Brand Panels"
* Federal Pacific Electric Stab-Lok breaker panels
* Zinsco electric panels
* Bryant electric panels
* Challenger replacement breakers/panels
* Other problem-prone panels or breakers (more research needed)

FP we all know about, but Zinsco, Bryant, Challenger? Anyone else know of documented problems with these brands similar to FP?
 
Some of the older Bryant panels have main breakers that are not too securely mounted.

We had to replace a brand new challenger panel after the mounting pan plastic partially melted under the main breaker. IF left as is, it was on the way to completely melting out, and then subject to some fancy pyrotechnics with the mains being in contact with the grounded metal enclosure. Poor design, IMO.
:mad:
 
I have had to change out burnt up Square-D panels and GE ones, along with all the rest of the panels that have been available on the market for the last 50 years. No panel is completely free from problems. In my opinion picking on Bryant and Challenger is not warrented by anything else than marketing hype.
 
I`ve seen quite a few stab locks fail.Also quite a few of the quad mains in mobile home panels put in in the 80`s tend to burn on the contact points.The old Zinscos, well they were good to weld with and not trip.
 
Zinsco 1, Homeowner 0...aftermarket install. My personal experience happened on one of my new home installations in the country using a 20-40 combo that also served farm loads. A new swimming pool was added later. The pool contractor decided to install an additional sub panel using an R38-90 breaker as the feeder disconnect back at the main panel. The feeder path was routed through the attached garage ceiling of the all electric house. The R38 didn't trip. The fire trucks were there on the first cold day the pool and a Jaccuzi were in operation while the homeowners had gone to town. The 2500 sf resi burnt to the ground. Of course the owners called me to let me know what happened. The last time I used Zinsco was in 1976. The Z combo's were only about $50 cheaper than Square D if I remember.
I know of one other Z failure on a house I didn't wire but occurred to another EC job on a house in the same community within weeks of the other incident. One side of a 15amp twin R38 didn't open on a 16d nail short and the length of that BC cable took out 3 other lines in a bundled group. The rework was a nightmare because the runs were routed in an enclosed soffitt the length of the house. The two occurances were enough to make a change in brands.
 
I'm not familiar with bryant or Zinsco, but in my opinion any panelboard with aluminum buss work for the phase conductors are junk. We have replaced countless numbers of ITE/Siemens panels(which have aluminum buss work) because the buss work literaly melts and the breaker melts with it. Most any homeline panel I've seen also has this "defect". Cutler hammer CH series is the way to go.
 
Hi Brandon,
Welcome to the mh forum. Don't discount SQ D's QO panels. They are the Cadillac basically in residential. You'll eventually run across FPE Stabloks and Zinsco-Sylvania panels doing changeouts in remod. Those old panels may still work as long as the breakers are not stressed. Most will probably function, but studies have been made that show an unacceptable percent of failure rate when a circuit is overloaded in the above two panels. Google up the aforementioned panel failure data on Stabloks and get an idea about these panels. Good wiring. :)
 
brandon2177k said:
... but in my opinion any panelboard with aluminum buss work for the phase conductors are junk. We have replaced countless numbers of ITE/Siemens panels(which have aluminum buss work) because the buss work literaly melts and the breaker melts with it.
Click to expand...
I don't think you've ever seen a panel with an aluminium buss. Most often, they are tin plated phosphorous bronze, which is easily confused with aluminium.
 
I replaced a Bryant panel once after the homeowner next door to the house i was working on asked me to look at his panel because it was "warm". It wasn't very far from ignition. Cause; loose connection between the main breaker and the buss. Melted the buss. Got a new ch main but buss was melted, tried to backfeed it but noticed the main was loose no matter where you put it so i couldn't just squeeze the tabs
 
Mdshunk said,"I don't think you've ever seen a panel with an aluminium buss. Most often, they are tin plated phosphorous bronze, which is easily confused with aluminium."
I think he probably has seen a panel with an aluminum buss. Siemens ITE offers their loadcenters with either aluminum, bare copper or plated copper. SQ D Homeline panels are all aluminum as are Murray and a few others. If you don't believe me check the Siemens Speedfax catalog. It lists Aluminum and copper bus for their "Ultimate Load Centers". In my experience, aluminum bus panels don't hold up where there is moisture, heavy loading such as electric heat or a combination of both.
 
amptech said:
In my experience, aluminum bus panels don't hold up where there is moisture, heavy loading such as electric heat or a combination of both.
Click to expand...

The problem isn't usually the bus. It is the connection between the bus and the breaker. Most commercial and industrial switchboards come with aluminum bus as standard. I think all of the Square D QO loadcenters smaller than 20 circuit (i.e. their QO6-12) have always been aluminum.
 
Well said Jim, i agree totally, it is the connection between the breaker and the buss. And I've only seen this connection fail when there is an aluminum buss.(which i know is aluminum because I've scratched away at it with my knife)I believe the problem is that on a circuit with a high load, heat is created, the aluminum buss expands, and the tabs in the breaker, being a different matal, expand at a higher temp. Over time this expansion spreads the tabs in the breaker to a point where a weak connection is made, arcing occurs, and as I said before, I have seen busswork literally burnt and melted away. But I have never seen this on a copper bus panel, namely cutler hammer Ch series, and Sq. D QO. As for larger industrial panels, even if they are aluminum buss, they are mostly if not all, bolt in breakers, and this is not really an issue. Just my opinion!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top