Bad GFCIs.

[sguinn]

Was doing a final inspection yesterday with the builder/owner on a house when I found that none of the kitchen countertop receps worked. The builder went to the basement and said the breakers were off, turned them on and it reminded me of Doctor Frankenstein's lab. Loud buzzing, then POP, then smoke! There were three more (including a bathroom) that did the same thing. Killed the power and started investigating and thought I would find a ground touching a hot etc. somewhere inside a box, but 4 GFCIs? Actually it turned out that all connections were properly made and at panel too. I told the builder the EC may have gotten into a bad batch of receps, but that many? These were Leviton brand (purchased at the local BIG BOX) What do you guys think....outsourced manufacturing, bad luck, gremlins?:-?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I told the builder the EC may have gotten into a bad batch of receps, but that many? These were Leviton brand (purchased at the local BIG BOX) What do you guys think....outsourced manufacturing, bad luck, gremlins?:-?

I take it the new GFCI recep. fixed the problem. Yes? About 20 years ago I had a box of 20 dimmers and of those 14 were bad. It happens-- also had boxes of bad light bulbs from a brand name manufacturer.

You should respond to Gar's thread on GFCI's

 

[LarryFine]

I'd start by disconnecting the line-side hot wires on the GFCI's and resetting the breakers again.

 

[gar]

080903-1637 EST

All the GFCIs I looked at were made in China.

Apparently you had receptacles that failed and not GFCI breakers. I believe these devices come in the tripped state. Thus, only the input MOV and electronics are across the line. In this state the input current should be about 7 MA and when latched about 8.6 MA.

My guess is the input MOV failed, or there was arc over between the hot an neutral conductors where they pass thru the current transformers. There are very short over the surface paths. Nothing else would be likely to draw sufficient current to trip a 20 A breaker.

Manufacturers in many places, including the US, depend upon certified incoming parts and therefore do not do quality control tests on received goods. Not always a good idea.

A manufacturer can have a good design and not maintain quality control and get in deep trouble.

Open a defective unit and see where the failure occurred. If it is the MOV it should have burned or exploded. This is a round disc directly at the input end.

.

 

[ohm]

080903-1637 EST

All the GFCIs I looked at were made in China.

Apparently you had receptacles that failed and not GFCI breakers. I believe these devices come in the tripped state. Thus, only the input MOV and electronics are across the line. In this state the input current should be about 7 MA and when latched about 8.6 MA.

My guess is the input MOV failed, or there was arc over between the hot an neutral conductors where they pass thru the current transformers. There are very short over the surface paths. Nothing else would be likely to draw sufficient current to trip a 20 A breaker.

Manufacturers in many places, including the US, depend upon certified incoming parts and therefore do not do quality control tests on received goods. Not always a good idea.

A manufacturer can have a good design and not maintain quality control and get in deep trouble.

Open a defective unit and see where the failure occurred. If it is the MOV it should have burned or exploded. This is a round disc directly at the input end.

.

Good point. The suppliers may even be ISO certified so the manufacturers don't even do quality checks on their suppliers. But, to become ISO certified all you have to do is have a plan and work your plan. It doesn't have to be a good plan.

 

[gar]

080904-1013 EST

ohm:

Although ISO and QS may have good intentions, the net result seems to be a lot of paper work and wasted process engineering time that could be better spent on solving problems. Even though rules may be specified for production workers these may be ignored.

Here is an example: A first part sheet contains a row with a bearing part number and to the right and adjacent to this is a blank space to write down the part number from the barcode label on the bearing pallet. After this the two numbers are to be compared. Instead the operators would simply copy the printed number in the left column to the blank space. This totally defeated the purpose of the blank space. More automation and maybe one could correct the problem. But the real problem is the operator's attitude.

.

 

[ohm]

080904-1013 EST

ohm:

Although ISO and QS may have good intentions, the net result seems to be a lot of paper work and wasted process engineering time that could be better spent on solving problems. Even though rules may be specified for production workers these may be ignored.

Here is an example: A first part sheet contains a row with a bearing part number and to the right and adjacent to this is a blank space to write down the part number from the barcode label on the bearing pallet. After this the two numbers are to be compared. Instead the operators would simply copy the printed number in the left column to the blank space. This totally defeated the purpose of the blank space. More automation and maybe one could correct the problem. But the real problem is the operator's attitude.

.

True, we were installing auomated control valves in a chlorine service. We paid big bucks to have them certified "free of organics" , which would make them get hot & possibly explode if they came in contact chlorine. The manufacturer was a huge ISO certified company.

Well after 90% of the valves were installed someone spotted grease in the ball/seat area. During a meeting with the manufacturer and us (GC) we stepped thru the manufacturers SOP and everything looked cool (no grease).

But when we stepped thru the actual assembly process we found the plant kept a tub of grease in the assembly area, to help put the valves together. You could hear a pin drop and I suspect someone didn't get his Christmas turkey that year.

Several hundred $4,000 valves had to be removed to a certified inspection facility and de-greased, before we could start the plant up.

 

[BryKey]

Had a similar issue years ago, every GFCI in the house smoked when the power was turned on. Kitchen, Bathroom, garage, all of them. We found that there was a neutral issue from the POCO.

 

[DanZ]

Are they Leveton, Leviton, Lavaton? In other words, is the names spelled correctly?

 

[gar]

080915-1357 EST

DanZ:

The part with which I have experimented is Leviton 7899-W. It is also called a "SmartLock Pro".

On this thread I found nowhere that anyone had used your other two spellings. What is your question?

.

 

[DanZ]

080915-1357 EST

DanZ:

The part with which I have experimented is Leviton 7899-W. It is also called a "SmartLock Pro".

On this thread I found nowhere that anyone had used your other two spellings. What is your question?

.

Well, it was directed more to the OP, but there are fake Leviton's out there that have Leviton spelled Leveton, or Levaton, or some such, that don't work. I think it was on this forum where someone was talking about a HO buying the stuff online and getting the cheapest price, but it might have been through a big box store as well.

 

[gar]

080915-1628 EST

DanZ:

It would be interesting to see what is inside the fake units you are describing in comparison the the Leviton. The Levitons that I purchased were from Home Depot. The P&S from my electrical distributor, Madison Electric, and the Cooper from Lowes.

.

 

[peter d]

As an aside, a while back Home Depot was selling some GFCI's under the brand name of Commercial Electric. (Home Depot's house brand.) They quickly went on clearance after they were introduced

It turns out the C.E. GFCI's were made by a company called "Shanghai ELE" which was being sued by P&S for patent infringement, presumably for copying the P&S GFCI design. I suspect this may be why the Commercial Electric GFCI's were rapidly closed out.

 

[DanZ]

080915-1628 EST

DanZ:

It would be interesting to see what is inside the fake units you are describing in comparison the the Leviton. The Levitons that I purchased were from Home Depot. The P&S from my electrical distributor, Madison Electric, and the Cooper from Lowes.

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I can't find the post now. It was before July, I think. If I recall correctly, someone had an HO buy a bunch of stuff off the internet, and asked him to install it on vacation. He started installing, and more than half of the devices (plugs and switches, I think) failed. He started looking at them, and found Leveton, or Levaton, not Leviton. Turns out the HO bought direct from a factory in China or some such, which was manufacturing counterfeit devices that didn't work. Maybe Pierre remembers? :wink: