I have a few questions, so I geuss I'll just pick and go from there. I'm sure you guys have all seen work that is bad--even terrible--so what do you guys do? I mean, will you confront the person who did the work or what? This weekend I went to my mom and her husband's house...and my mom's husband wired this whole house fan. The directions said to pull power to the fan with some 14/2. Then pull some 14/3 to the switch--for your power and two switch (high and low). Well, he didn't have any 14/3...I told him he needed to get some, but he said he wanted to do it with the wire he had. So I told him to just pull power to the switch, then pull two wires up to the fan. Splice the neutrals...yada, yada... But no--he wanted to do it his way. OK, so he pulls 3 runs of 14/2...so he has an extra wire. So he just cuts it off, along wiht the ground. I'm not sure why he cut the ground off, and then left one ground--but whatever! I asked him if he grounded the fan, and hten he was like "don't worry about it." Yeah, that's really going to make me not worry about it! For a while, I thought the fan was not grounded--but then what he said made since. Power was at the fan, so the ground back to the service panel was in tact...not that that makes it OK that he just cut off the extra wires...but that's better than nothing being grounded. I've always just been taught to splice grounds together, and if you end up with only one in a box, just leave it--don't cut it off! But isn't it illegal to have unused conductors in Romex? I looked and coudln't find anything in my code book. So what do you guys do when peopel do work you think is terrible? Just ignore it. I told him I wasn't impressed with his work, then I walked away--he didn't give a darn. Oh, well...and he watched me like a hawk to make sure I did good work. After seeing what he can do, I can't believe he thought I needed to be watched. I'm not the one that needs to be watched.
Bad work - what to do?
- Thread starter midget
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Re: Bad work - what to do?
I try and avoid dealing w/ family with "work" related matters....one time I had a long discussion (too long) about whether to twist the wires or not before putting on a wire nut...another debate was over fan braces - a 2x4 and a round box or a box designed for a CF.
if you want to hire me and get a proper inspection....fine; if you want me to "inspect" your work and then "debate" your methods...no, thanks.
In the end, I'd rather just sit down and eat, then argue with myself (family has a tendancy to get a case of "selective hearing" at any given moment).
I said "PASS THE POTATOES, dammit!"
I try and avoid dealing w/ family with "work" related matters....one time I had a long discussion (too long) about whether to twist the wires or not before putting on a wire nut...another debate was over fan braces - a 2x4 and a round box or a box designed for a CF.
if you want to hire me and get a proper inspection....fine; if you want me to "inspect" your work and then "debate" your methods...no, thanks.
In the end, I'd rather just sit down and eat, then argue with myself (family has a tendancy to get a case of "selective hearing" at any given moment).
I said "PASS THE POTATOES, dammit!"
Re: Bad work - what to do?
His qualifications are aparently he wired his own house and passed and inspection, and now he's a genius. Well, that's what he said to me before anyway...that he's wired houses and knows what it takes to pass inspections.
Sure dude! I talked to my teacher about it, and he laughed and said somethign about engineers! I would go make it right, except I think that would just create more tension between us (I challenge him a lot). Probably more than I should--but oh well! I mean, if he has some better way to do things, he should explain it and let me learn stuff...not just tell me not to worry about it, or whatever. What a yo-yo.
Hey, Physis...I've been busy tryign to finish up school. Got one more week and a few days left, so I gotta get some stuff done. Then I graduate. I've also been working on trying to get to the Dominican Republic for about a month this summer.
[ May 17, 2005, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: midget ]
His qualifications are aparently he wired his own house and passed and inspection, and now he's a genius. Well, that's what he said to me before anyway...that he's wired houses and knows what it takes to pass inspections.
Sure dude! I talked to my teacher about it, and he laughed and said somethign about engineers! I would go make it right, except I think that would just create more tension between us (I challenge him a lot). Probably more than I should--but oh well! I mean, if he has some better way to do things, he should explain it and let me learn stuff...not just tell me not to worry about it, or whatever. What a yo-yo. Hey, Physis...I've been busy tryign to finish up school. Got one more week and a few days left, so I gotta get some stuff done. Then I graduate. I've also been working on trying to get to the Dominican Republic for about a month this summer.
[ May 17, 2005, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: midget ]
southernboys
Senior Member
Re: Bad work - what to do?
midge congrats on your schooling. In my case if I walk into a house and I see hak work the first thing Ill do is inform customer of what has been done wrong and since im already there I would be more then glad to fix whatever else is wrong. ie so cord feeding lights at least I think its so could be an old ext cord that someone cut. or a 6/3 ran an exposed wall to a ahu. now however if customer doesnt want me to fix old hak work Ill probaly just leave work for someone else so that I can not be held liable. now with that being my moms house the hell with the hak being my stepfather im ripping his crap out and redoing it corectly
midge congrats on your schooling. In my case if I walk into a house and I see hak work the first thing Ill do is inform customer of what has been done wrong and since im already there I would be more then glad to fix whatever else is wrong. ie so cord feeding lights at least I think its so could be an old ext cord that someone cut. or a 6/3 ran an exposed wall to a ahu. now however if customer doesnt want me to fix old hak work Ill probaly just leave work for someone else so that I can not be held liable. now with that being my moms house the hell with the hak being my stepfather im ripping his crap out and redoing it corectly
Re: Bad work - what to do?
lol...I should. He like doesn't respect me and listen to me, though, beacuse he thinks I'm not an adult. And he thinks I'm a flake. But I think he does crappy work, and worse of all, he like doesn't admit when he is wrong. Or he doensn't know he is wrong...but I think he knows, and just won't admit it. BUT...since I *really* don't know how he wired it, in terms of what random j-box he put in to get power and stuff, I'm not gonna touch it for now...I should have watched him, but the attic is too darn small...
lol...I should. He like doesn't respect me and listen to me, though, beacuse he thinks I'm not an adult.
And he thinks I'm a flake. But I think he does crappy work, and worse of all, he like doesn't admit when he is wrong. Or he doensn't know he is wrong...but I think he knows, and just won't admit it. BUT...since I *really* don't know how he wired it, in terms of what random j-box he put in to get power and stuff, I'm not gonna touch it for now...I should have watched him, but the attic is too darn small...Re: Bad work - what to do?
If he ran two 14/2s for the switch loop and cut off one ground, the switch might not be grounded. Some people get confused and cut the wrong ground wire at the opposite end with the result that the ground no longer exists. I would rather parallel the grounds even though they are not 1/0 because I know that I am not cutting the wrong one.
I also encountered a bathroom renovation where an alledged electrcian cut ALL the ground wires because he did not know what it was. I also one time lived in a basement apartment where the homeowner had the device ears on the wrong side of the paneling and had terminated the cable sheaths outside of the boxes.
I also encountered an instance where a licensed electrician nailed knob and tube wiring directly to wood work with both sides of the 120 volts underneath the same steel cable staple when connecting the knob and tube to romex using a box.
In 1971 we lived in a house in New Jersey that had ZERO antishort bushings in the BX cables for the original circuits. The house was only a few years old when the 120 volt branch circuits started burning out. Shortly after, Dad was offered a job by National Aluminum in Pittsburgh, PA. The landlord from whom we were renting got stuck with the bad BX cables.
If he ran two 14/2s for the switch loop and cut off one ground, the switch might not be grounded. Some people get confused and cut the wrong ground wire at the opposite end with the result that the ground no longer exists. I would rather parallel the grounds even though they are not 1/0 because I know that I am not cutting the wrong one.
I also encountered a bathroom renovation where an alledged electrcian cut ALL the ground wires because he did not know what it was. I also one time lived in a basement apartment where the homeowner had the device ears on the wrong side of the paneling and had terminated the cable sheaths outside of the boxes.
I also encountered an instance where a licensed electrician nailed knob and tube wiring directly to wood work with both sides of the 120 volts underneath the same steel cable staple when connecting the knob and tube to romex using a box.
In 1971 we lived in a house in New Jersey that had ZERO antishort bushings in the BX cables for the original circuits. The house was only a few years old when the 120 volt branch circuits started burning out. Shortly after, Dad was offered a job by National Aluminum in Pittsburgh, PA. The landlord from whom we were renting got stuck with the bad BX cables.
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- Massachusetts
Re: Bad work - what to do?
Considering 300.3(B) requires all conductors of the same circuit and all equipment grounding conductors to be contained within the same cable, cutting off the 'extra' ground would be a violation.
Why would you cut off the grounding conductor?
Considering 300.3(B) requires all conductors of the same circuit and all equipment grounding conductors to be contained within the same cable, cutting off the 'extra' ground would be a violation.
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- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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- Service Manager
Re: Bad work - what to do?
Some of the stuff my Dad does drives me nuts. For an electrician, he's a darn good truck driver.
Midget, I'd inspect it, but I'd leave it alone unless you see a hazard. That way when the splices go bad from him not twisting his wires, you can laugh at him.
Sounds like he realized he was being an idiot, and trashed the extra piece of 14-2. Then pride took over and he told his aspiring electrician stepson to shut up. Just don't ask him why he didn't leave the romex in he ceiling, dead, for future use.
Some of the stuff my Dad does drives me nuts. For an electrician, he's a darn good truck driver.
Midget, I'd inspect it, but I'd leave it alone unless you see a hazard. That way when the splices go bad from him not twisting his wires, you can laugh at him.
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: Bad work - what to do?
Bob
Ask him to have it inspected. I don't know the rules where you are at but in my state, Minnesota, this installation would require an inspection. Having it inspected would do a couple things. 1) It would shift the responsibility you feel from you, being family, to the inspector. 2) It would relieve you of concern to know that it will have to be done right. 3) It would show him that he may not be the expert he believes he is, which would be a good eye opener for him.
Bob
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- Lockport, IL
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- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Bad work - what to do?
One thing is true for Electricians, Contractors, Inspectors, and Engineers: Our first and foremost duty is to protect the health and safety of the public. That duty does not change, when it is a family member, and not the public, that is placed at risk. But it does become harder to exercise our duties, when a family member does not agree with our assessment of the risk.
I don?t quite understand how this circuit is wired. I infer that you are not certain yourself. But I can say, from what you have described, that you mother?s health and safety is at risk. You can tell her so from me. You can also tell her that many other members of this Forum agree. And you can tell them both that they have an accident waiting to pick out its victim. Finally, you can show them the analogy from my post of May 17, 10:37 am, in this thread.
[ May 18, 2005, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
One thing is true for Electricians, Contractors, Inspectors, and Engineers: Our first and foremost duty is to protect the health and safety of the public. That duty does not change, when it is a family member, and not the public, that is placed at risk. But it does become harder to exercise our duties, when a family member does not agree with our assessment of the risk.
I don?t quite understand how this circuit is wired. I infer that you are not certain yourself. But I can say, from what you have described, that you mother?s health and safety is at risk. You can tell her so from me. You can also tell her that many other members of this Forum agree. And you can tell them both that they have an accident waiting to pick out its victim. Finally, you can show them the analogy from my post of May 17, 10:37 am, in this thread.
[ May 18, 2005, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
Re: Bad work - what to do?
Bob...I know he cut the white wire off because it was an extra, but there was 2 grounds, so I would have just spliced them (if I would done such bad way of wiring it, which I wouldn't have )...but I'm not sure why he cut the grounds off. And I sinced he really didn't wnat me to question him about it anymore. At first, I figured OK maybe he's just doing this whole thing some other way, and maybe I could learn something. SO I watched him for a bit, then instead of pulling power to the switch (would could have made this OK--no extra wire) he just pulled a 3rd 14/2...and at that point I figured out he wasn't doing it some different way. Well, he was...but not a different way that is something I should learn from...and not a different way that is even acceptable.
Bob...I know he cut the white wire off because it was an extra, but there was 2 grounds, so I would have just spliced them (if I would done such bad way of wiring it, which I wouldn't have
)...but I'm not sure why he cut the grounds off. And I sinced he really didn't wnat me to question him about it anymore. At first, I figured OK maybe he's just doing this whole thing some other way, and maybe I could learn something. SO I watched him for a bit, then instead of pulling power to the switch (would could have made this OK--no extra wire) he just pulled a 3rd 14/2...and at that point I figured out he wasn't doing it some different way. Well, he was...but not a different way that is something I should learn from...and not a different way that is even acceptable.
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: Bad work - what to do?
Charlie,
I think it is possible I have been misunderstood and after reviewing my post, I can see why. I did not intend to suggest that any responsibility would or should be "shifted" from one individual to another. A more accurate term would have been "shared". It is very difficult to be the one to enforce rules or laws on family, especially if he/she is not open to it. Involving a third party could shift any potential animosity from his step father toward the third party rather than returning to midget. It could be a less aggressive way for midget to get his point across without putting his step father on the defensive.
Bob
Charlie,
I think it is possible I have been misunderstood and after reviewing my post, I can see why. I did not intend to suggest that any responsibility would or should be "shifted" from one individual to another. A more accurate term would have been "shared". It is very difficult to be the one to enforce rules or laws on family, especially if he/she is not open to it. Involving a third party could shift any potential animosity from his step father toward the third party rather than returning to midget. It could be a less aggressive way for midget to get his point across without putting his step father on the defensive.
Bob
- Location
- Lockport, IL
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- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Bad work - what to do?
Bob: I saw nothing inappropriate in your post. I agree with what you said. I think we all know that the real problem with ?Do It Yourselfers? is that they really think they CAN do it themselves. It may not be possible to convince some that they can?t. It seems like midget is facing that dilemma. It also seems like midget, being self-described as a ?student,? does not enjoy the professional credibility that an old-timer might have. Why should the father-in-law listen to what he says?
What I am hoping is that the support that midget has received from members of this Forum will help convince the father-in-law that he did this installation wrong, and thereby created a dangerous situation. No-one would want to live with the memory of a family member being injured (or worse) because of something that we did wrong.
Diplomacy might be a good tool to use here. But my message to the father-in-law is this:
Bob: I saw nothing inappropriate in your post. I agree with what you said. I think we all know that the real problem with ?Do It Yourselfers? is that they really think they CAN do it themselves. It may not be possible to convince some that they can?t. It seems like midget is facing that dilemma. It also seems like midget, being self-described as a ?student,? does not enjoy the professional credibility that an old-timer might have. Why should the father-in-law listen to what he says?
What I am hoping is that the support that midget has received from members of this Forum will help convince the father-in-law that he did this installation wrong, and thereby created a dangerous situation. No-one would want to live with the memory of a family member being injured (or worse) because of something that we did wrong.
Diplomacy might be a good tool to use here. But my message to the father-in-law is this:
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