baptismal

[s.d. cronk]

I am looking for some opinions on this subject...... does a baptismal installed inside of a church meet the defintion of a permanent pool, and thereby be required to be installed in accordance with article 680, or not....... The defintions in NEC 680.2 for a permanent pool does state all pools installed inside of a building regardless of water depth or whether served by electrical circuits or not is a permanent pool. If we are to look at it in this fashion it is obviously very restrictive on locations of receptacles, switching devices, and of course the lighting, for something that is used infrequently at best. On the other hand we do not wish to approve an installation that is in violation. The literature that we currently have does not indicate any specific NEC code requirements for the installation. Any help that you could provide would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[bennie]

Re: baptismal

Code sections can be quoted forever.

Take a logical approach...Is there an obvious danger in the location of electrical outlets?

 

[tom baker]

Re: baptismal

GFCI recepctacles are inexpensive at the moment ($7.00-more when the old style is no longer avaiable). Bennies reply is perfect. Why debate it? Install GFCI protection and be done with it.

But to me if it holds water, its a pool regardless of what you call it.

 

[s.d. cronk]

Re: baptismal

"code sections can be quoted forever"... nice .....that is what we are supposed to do is it not....as the AHJ are we not required to quote the code and apply it to the installation.....or should we make up our own rules as we see fit, that always go over well with everyone.
GFCI protection does not solve all the problems, ie: switching devices located closer that the 5' requirement or the lighting fixtures installed over the restricted area.
Secondly,GFCI protection will not be all that cheap when you consider the number of receptacles on individual circuits located within the 20' area.
What we were attempting to do is prevent the contractor/owner from spending an excessive amount of money needlessly.
Thanks for all your help.

 

[bennie]

Re: baptismal

The definition is close to that of a pool. It is also close to that of a bath tub.

The purpose is to wash away your sins.

This is when common sense is permitted by the code.

[ April 08, 2003, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[s.d. cronk]

Re: baptismal

I will be sure to look for the reference about washing away your sins in the NEC...What Article is that in again?

 

[bennie]

Re: baptismal

I can show you a lot of things that are not in the NEC.

 

[kyle]

Re: baptismal

The good old common sense argument, the last refuge of the uninformed. I don't know if it would be a pool or not, could go either way, does it remain full all the time or drained after each use? It does seem to meet the defintion of a pool.Good luck

 

[s.d. cronk]

Re: baptismal

How can you enforce a code requirement that is not in the NEC or permit something that is?

 

[bphgravity]

Re: baptismal

90.4

 

[s.d. cronk]

Re: baptismal

This is obviously not going anywhere I think that we are looking at it from two different directions. Thanks for your input.

 

[s.d. cronk]

Re: baptismal

I'm not sure what it is like in Florida but in Ohio the AHJ is the C.B.O. only, he or she is the only one who can make those determinations. What I was attempting to do is get some more information to go to the CBO for a interpetation of this installation/requirement.

 

[charlie b]

Re: baptismal

I agree that common sense must be allowed to prevail. I also agree that the AHJ might choose to call this one either way. Sometimes the answer can be found by a more careful reading of the rule. But this requires us to give the author of the rule full credit for having carefully selected the wording. I therefore offer the following concept as the basis for my answer to the posted question:

?The Number One Rule of Technical Reading,? by Charlie Beck: ?It doesn?t say what you think it says, nor what you were taught that it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you want it to say, and if you were its author, it does not say what you wanted it to say. Then what does it say? It says what it says.?

680.2 defines a pool as ?Manufactured or field-constructed equipment designed to contain water on a permanent or semipermanent basis and used for swimming, wading, or other purposes.?

Is a baptismal manufactured or field-constructed? Yes. Is it DESIGNED (my emphasis) to contain water on a permanent or semi-permanent basis (regardless of whether the owner chooses to drain it after each use)? Yes. Is it used for ?other purposes?? Yes. Does a baptismal meet the definition of a ?pool,? as written in NEC 680.2? Yes.

[ April 08, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]

 

[s.d. cronk]

Re: baptismal

Thank you

 

[bennie]

Re: baptismal

Not for debate just for points to think about.

A pool has filter pumps, circulating pumps, heaters, and underwater lights.

A pool is used for recreation purposes, often by many at one time.

This is why I feel the baptismal is closer to being a bath tub. No special wiring requirements except don't put anything in the tub except a rubber duck.

 

[eprice]

Re: baptismal

Is a water heater manufactured or field-constructed? Yes. Is it designed to contain water on a permanent or semi-permanent basis? Yes. Is it used for ?other purposes?? Yes. Does a water heater meet the definition of a ?pool,? as written in NEC 680.2? Yes.

Hence, we need to think about intended use of an appliance and what are the salient safty issues involved before we label it a pool. For me, in the case of the baptismal, the question of what constitutes a permanent or semi-permanent basis is key. Would 30 hours a week be semi-permanent? Probably. 2 hours a month? Maybe not.

[ April 08, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: eprice ]

 

[s wayne cook]

Re: baptismal

I hooked up a Baptismal pool about a year ago. I pondered where it fit in the code for a week. I tried to follow 680 and specifically "B. Permanently Installed Pools". If you analyze it, it comes closest to fitting this description. It certainly can't be just considered ordinary wiring. Incidently, when the inspector came to inspect, he asked me what code section applied. He, like me, had never seen a Baptismal pool installed either.

A buddy said treat it like a Therapeutic Pool... said it provided therapy for the soul!

Maybe we need to sponsor a code change that defines what it is?

Wayne

PS Hope you are improving Bennie.

 

[roger]

Re: baptismal

Hello Wayne, I did one twenty years ago so this probably want mean anything as far as the 2002 code.

This unit had low voltage lights in it,(12v pool light transformer) and simply stated all wiring should be GFCI.

The only reason I remember this, is it was the only one I've ever done.

I like the therapy for the soul angle.

Roger

 

[tom baker]

Re: baptismal

Charlie B, excellent. That is exactly how Mike Holt reads explains a code rule. For example the 2002 NEC requires all kitchen recptacles to be GFCI protected. Period. Then what happens is we all read more into it than is there, such as exemptions for dedicated appliances, and so forth.