bare ground used as neutral.

[flatlander]

Performed a service call over the weekend. Power was out in one section of the home. In troubleshooting I found the neutral used as a hot. The hot abandoned and the bare ground used as the neutral.
The customer understands that it is not to code. However he does not see how it is potentially dangerous.


How would you explain to him the seriousness?

 

[infinity]

For one thing your installation lacks the requisite EGC run with the circuit.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is the connection you talk about the branch circuit or a feeder? Why was the power out?

 

[Strathead]

Performed a service call over the weekend. Power was out in one section of the home. In troubleshooting I found the neutral used as a hot. The hot abandoned and the bare ground used as the neutral.
The customer understands that it is not to code. However he does not see how it is potentially dangerous.


How would you explain to him the seriousness?

IMO, you can't, if the customer seriously asked that question. Other than explaining that the danger is not imminent, it is preventative. No different than not leaving a candle burning in the house when you go on vacation or not sitting in the middle of the road just because there are no cars coming.

 

[flatlander]

Is the connection you talk about the branch circuit or a feeder? Why was the power out?

melted feed through connection. Aluminum clad wiring.

 

[flatlander]

IMO, you can't, if the customer seriously asked that question. Other than explaining that the danger is not imminent, it is preventative. No different than not leaving a candle burning in the house when you go on vacation or not sitting in the middle of the road just because there are no cars coming.

I see it more dangerous than a candle. The neutral is a bare conductor that has loosely twisted connections. If there is a failure there is no ground. I get a blank face from the customer as he cannot comprehend. He just wants to understand and not by analogy of "sitting in the street"

 

[iwire]

I would note it on the bill and move on.

 

[GerryB]

melted feed through connection. Aluminum clad wiring.

Did you fix it? If you did you are kind of stuck now because it works and they don't want to spend any more money. I have been in that position. Tell him an electrical fire is much more likely with the improper wiring and no ground to trip the breaker. I had on a job once a metal box with bx and an outlet in it laying loose on the floor. When you moved it a certain way it shot up in flames, move it back the other way and the flames died. I have had many customers ask me "can it cause a fire?" for certain things. (like warm dimmer switches). If this is a regular customer maybe you can talk them into fixing it, don't know how involved that might be though. Or if you took money for a service call you could give it back and say you are not comfortable with it.

 

[flatlander]

I only repaired the outlets that were melted. I found the other issues while investigation. I took a picture of those and screwed the device back into the box.i ain't giving any money back because of their bootleg electrical. All I have been finding is bootleg crap lately. I can't just turn off the power and walk. And charge my minimum.

 

[mbrooke]

I only repaired the outlets that were melted. I found the other issues while investigation. I took a picture of those and screwed the device back into the box.i ain't giving any money back because of their bootleg electrical. All I have been finding is bootleg crap lately. I can't just turn off the power and walk. And charge my minimum.

Some think its safer than no ground


Any way, starting at post #15, why bootlegging is bad:


http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/non-uk-electrical-works/97929-bulgaria-rcd-2.html

 

[kwired]

I see it more dangerous than a candle. The neutral is a bare conductor that has loosely twisted connections. If there is a failure there is no ground. I get a blank face from the customer as he cannot comprehend. He just wants to understand and not by analogy of "sitting in the street"

Explain why we need a separate grounded and equipment grounding conductor with feeders and branch circuits. If he can't comprehend offer to teach him if he pays same tuition as he would a higher learning institution teaching him same topic.

If they don't get it, make sure you have let them know you do not think it is safe, and maybe make sure you have that notification recorded somehow in case it tries to bite you back. You are not obligated to do what they don't want you to do, or want to pay you to do, but you are obligated to tell them what they have is a potential hazard.

 

[growler]

Performed a service call over the weekend. Power was out in one section of the home. In troubleshooting I found the neutral used as a hot. The hot abandoned and the bare ground used as the neutral.
The customer understands that it is not to code. However he does not see how it is potentially dangerous.


How would you explain to him the seriousness?

The neutral is a bare conductor that has loosely twisted connections. If there is a failure there is no ground. I get a blank face from the customer as he cannot comprehend.

The missing ground is not the real problem here. Having an uninsulated neutral conductor can be very dangerous if that conductor ever opens. If you open that conductor you will measure 120V from the return to ground. If the customer understands that they may end up as the path to ground it will make more sense.

 

[flatlander]

Let me ask you this. Do you think that a ground wire system in a circuit comprised of twisted wires some crimped some not is equal to a properly wire nutted insulated neutral?

 

[flatlander]

Thank you all for your reply. I'm glad that you are on the same page with respect to notify. There are times when u want to keep quiet and not ruffle any feathers.

 

[Cletis]

There are those that will say missing an egc is immanent death or injury and then there are 1/2 the houses probably in your town that are 2 wire where there hasnt been 1 reported electrical injury.



P.S.

I'd upsell them on a total rewire and go with the former

 

[kwired]

The missing ground is not the real problem here. Having an uninsulated neutral conductor can be very dangerous if that conductor ever opens. If you open that conductor you will measure 120V from the return to ground. If the customer understands that they may end up as the path to ground it will make more sense.

If it is performing both neutral functions as well as EGC functions, yes that is still a concern, but I don't see the fact there is no covering on the conductor making it much better or worse, as you still put open neutral voltage on everything downstream of an open circuit point. If the circuit in question is not using the bare for both neutral and EGC then he still is missing EGC - either way there are problems with the install and it is not easy to decide which may be the lesser evil.