Barn wiring mess, and "Distribution Point"

[mikewillnot]

I looked at a barn yesterday (several, actually), and they asked for a quote on some work. I've attached a seriously crude sketch of the distribution.

This is not a commercial agricultural operation. It's a family deal, an older couple with a small amount of livestock mainly as pets, including (1) goat, (1) horse, (?) chickens, (4-6) cows, and (1) pot-bellied pig named Wilbur. A donkey passed away the night before I got there, so he doesn't count. The barns are good sized, and quite roomy, I would think, for this quantity of animals. On a close look, the wiring is a nightmare.

Distribution, generally:

HOUSE breaker panel -> Barn A
underground, looks like URD or some kind of aluminum triplex, in EMT where visible, on double-pole 50-amp breaker in house panel
At building A, terminates in 6" PVC j-box on outside wall of A. no breakers in barn A or thereafter.
GFCI receptacle in additional box mounted on J-box.
Cable connected to GFCI load terminals feeds through wall to inside of A, and then feeds several lights, switches, and receptacles, all wired on 14ga UF.

Barn A -> Barn B
Same kind of feeder as from house to A, in EMT where visible.
Terminates at B in 6" PVC j-box on outside of building.
GFCI receptacle in additional box mounted on J-box.
Cable connected to GFCI load terminals feeds through wall to inside of B, and there feeds several lights, switches, and receptacles, all wired on 14ga UF.

Barn A -> Henhouse
Additional cable connected at barn A j-box, when I got there connected to line side of GFCI, feeds to detached henhouse via 1/2" EMT barely buried and obviously in poor condition.

The GFCI receptacle on A had been damaged due to water. Replaced it, reconnected henhouse to GFCI load; tripped. Left henhouse disconnected.

I realize, and told them, that there's a whole lot of problems here, the worst being a whole lot of 14ga wire on a 50-amp breaker, using the ground for a neutral.

Told them
1) they need small outdoor breaker panel on barn A, instead of the j-box, with proper grounding, feeder configured for 120volts and an insulated neutral, and 15-amp breakers for each building, as all the "branch circuit" wiring was only rated for 15 amps.
2) there's a ground-fault on the henhouse line, either "underground" or in the henhouse, that has to be located and corrected. Also, the "underground" line needs to be underground.

I am completely open to any comments and/or suggestions. Please.

 

[petersonra]

You can:

run away,

or

try to fix it,

or

rip it out and start over.


It is pretty much about how much they are willing to spend.

of course, you knew this before you posted.

 

[Cow]

I've wired a few different ag buildings so I'm going to tell you right now, I wouldn't touch or quote anything until I spoke to an inspector. You need to be aware of article 547, specifically 547.10. Chances are you don't have an equipotential plane among the other problems you have and the only way to know how far you are going to have to tear into this is by speaking to your AHJ first.

 

[K8MHZ]

I've wired a few different ag buildings so I'm going to tell you right now, I wouldn't touch or quote anything until I spoke to an inspector. You need to be aware of article 547, specifically 547.10. Chances are you don't have an equipotential plane among the other problems you have and the only way to know how far you are going to have to tear into this is by speaking to your AHJ first.

Does New York enforce 547? It's not enforced in Michigan. The reason I got in my code upgrade class for ignoring 547 was that 'farmers must have a powerful lobby'.

I agree, run it by the inspection dept. first. If the property is exempt, all one can do is to make it as safe as possible with the amount of resources given. Remember, the NEC is not a design manual.

 

[mikewillnot]

I'm working through the issues bit by bit; I'll check with an inspector. Hereabouts, inspectors work out of 3rd-party agencies, with a short list of approved agencies held in each town. Within that list, I get to call whoever I want.

I've read 547, including .10. The only mentions I see of "distribution point" states that it's on a pole. My question is, can a distribution point (distributing to (an)other buildings) be on the outside of a building? Or to put it in the context of this case, can a sub-panel on a detached building or barn be a distribution point?

 

[StarCat]

Farm and Ranch Work

Farm and Ranch Work

I like the " run away " idea.
Having been a horse handler for people that don't have any business owning horses but have done so their entire lives....and so on an so forth.
I have never seen more cut corner systems then on farm and ranch and the cheap skatedness will likely never end.
You will explain things to people and they will resist reality.
Like the direct buried romex that was feeding the not so safe trough heaters that were being run that failed direct short on line conductors due to the GFCI outlet that was set with an indoor cover plate and frozen up more than a few times...


All the best

 

[Buck Parrish]

I was asked to add some circuits on a horse barn for drink machines. The barn was huge, it was over a 100 stalls.
The wiring was so bad it looked so unsafe, it was incredible. So while I was telling them what needed to be done to make it safe.

We looked across the field to one of their other barns. Smoke was rolling out of it. By the time they ran over to it, their were flames shooting out of it.
I spent the next couple hours out at the main road directing fire trucks to the drive way. It was a three alarm fire.

 

[John120/240]

We looked across the field to one of their other barns. Smoke was rolling out of it. By the time they ran over to it, their were flames shooting out of it.
I spent the next couple hours out at the main road directing fire trucks to the drive way. It was a three alarm fire.

Was it an electrical fire ? Whatever the cause of the fire, It reinforces the necessity for a NEC compliant installation buy you and that Quality is not cheap.