baseboard heaters

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highendtron

highendtron

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I have a client that wired several basement baseboard heaters (220v) using a ten pair twisted wire cable. He ran one pair of twisted wires to each of five floor mounted heaters. Originally, his house had 3 phase power and He hired me to convert it to single phase to lower his monthly rates. I hooked his loads up and informed him that none of the baseboard heaters had a neutral or ground run to them and asked him if he had had any problems. He told me that his basement had flooded twice in the last three years due to his kids leaving a sink on and once, because of ground water. I told him that the heaters should be off the floor and have at least a ground. I would prefer to put all of them on a ground fault, but I don't think they make a double pole ground fault breaker and I don't think the code makes any demands beyond the ground. I would like to hear some thoughts on this.Thanks!
 
augie47

augie47

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Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I don't think you would want to hear my initial thoughts....
but, I digress
a. like stickboy, what kind of cable ? doesn't sound much like an approved power cable.
b. why did you mention neutral ?
c. they do make a double pole ground fault
d. and, curious, how does converting to single phase reduce his rate ? does POCO bill differently for single phase ?
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Ditto

They do make dp gfci but I would just get a ground to these units. I hope this twisted pair isn't phone wire.
 
highendtron

highendtron

Senior Member
baseboard heaters

I blew it by using the term "twisted pair"...The cable he used was about 1 1/2" diameter and was like a huge "so" cord of paired wires. All the wires were 12 gauge and the insulation was like tw. My concerns are that none of the heaters are grounded, the room had been flooded, and most importantly, he has three young kids that play around the heaters.What the average cost of a double pole 20 amp GFCI breaker?
 
mdshunk

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
I gotta tell you that you don't even need to clear up for me exactly what kind of cable this is that he ran to the baseboard heaters. Whatever it is, it's not approved for permanent wiring of a buiding and should be abandoned.
 
wbalsam1

wbalsam1

Senior Member
Location
Upper Jay, NY
I'm trying to envision what an 1 1/2 wide cord must look like as it goes into a 3/4 inch knockout in the back of a baseboard heater...also trying to see the splice box in the heater....this whole thing smacks of a hack.

Your unfamiliarity with the availability of a very common 2-pole gfci and the mention of a neutral for baseboard heaters suggests to me that it might be wise to involve someone more familiar with the trade.
Please, understand I mean no ill-will...just concern for the safety of the users of the building, just like you. :smile:
 
highendtron

highendtron

Senior Member
baseboard heaters

That's ok, no offense taken...I will know to avoided you ,too. This is supposed to be a forum for learning and for questions, it's of no surprise that occasionally it also hides a few like you, that strive to demonstrate the foibles of others to help elevate themselves.
 
wbalsam1

wbalsam1

Senior Member
Location
Upper Jay, NY
highendtron said:
That's ok, no offense taken...I will know to avoided you ,too. This is supposed to be a forum for learning and for questions, it's of no surprise that occasionally it also hides a few like you, that strive to demonstrate the foibles of others to help elevate themselves.
Click to expand...

I apologize to you publically for the "tone" of my post. I certainly tried to take precautions so as not to sound condesending.
My actual intent was two-fold, i.e., to call attention to the "hack installer" that left such an installation in place for the occupants to live with and for you to have to deal with electrically; and to hint at perhaps getting some help on this job due in large part because of the impression you left me with, in your post, of lacking familiarity with what I perceived were fairly common electrical components.

Stupidity is a disease of perception that I've suffered with a long time now.

My apologies for offending you. :smile:
 
G

gndrod

Senior Member
Location
Ca and Wa
basement baseboards

basement baseboards

Hi highendtron,

I am also really interested in the type of cable you have mentioned and if there is an imprinted cable type and rating number on the sheath that you can pass on to us. Secondly, is the panelboard close by and is there enough room to add additional cable. rbj
 
highendtron

highendtron

Senior Member
baseboard heaters

I should have and could have been more clear...I knew that the cable was wrong. I guess what surprised me was that the extra conductors in the cable could have been used as grounds or grounded conductors. They were cut off and only two conductors each went to each 220volt heater. Each heater clearly had an unused ground terminal. When I talked to the home owner I identified the problem and told him that I did not want to wire the heater loads in the panel. That's when he told me about the basement floor and heaters being flooded. April in Missouri means that the weather changes are drastic. I told him I would look in to options and would run circuits for him. I was hoping that the board would suggest that GFCI's, new circuits, raising the heaters off the deck, or other options based on experience and safety be submitted. Oh well...by the way, the old panels had two sets of 2" rigid nipples that ran from the top of the panels to the overhead drop ceiling. All of the branch circuits including the cable were stuffed into them. All of that mess is gone and only the wiring problem with the heaters remain.When I go back I will get the wire type of the cable.
 
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