So this customer tells me that his house that was wired by a friend? (I found more code violations than you can imagine)Has this outlet box above the Jaq tub about 6' above waters edge for lighting and the customer wants to put up molding so he can put in this rope lighting for lights and he wants to plug them in now he wants to hide the outlet box with the molding, it is above the tub so I am thinking a wet location, gfi outlet+wet location= in use cover-bath tub-ugly cover-accessibility-code violation(outlets in the tub area)= different approach The customer wants to hard wire the rope lighting into the box thru the cover, What about low volt lighting? There is a 14/2 ran from the sink cavity up to the box for the light so a xformer can be put under the sink,And he wants to keep costs down (the customer is a painter and is finishing the house himself) :roll:
Bath Tubs
- Thread starter rrrusty
- Start date
- Status
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Bath Tubs
Run as hard as you can and don't look back! Let someone else work with this job, trust me, you do not need the work that badly.
Run as hard as you can and don't look back! Let someone else work with this job, trust me, you do not need the work that badly.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Bath Tubs
Just where is his friend now?
If this house is full of violations i think if i valued my license i would tell him NO THANK YOU and leave.Your now becoming a partner in this house with some wanta be electrician.Is it worth the liability ?
ooops Charlie beat me
[ January 30, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
Just where is his friend now?
If this house is full of violations i think if i valued my license i would tell him NO THANK YOU and leave.Your now becoming a partner in this house with some wanta be electrician.Is it worth the liability ?
ooops Charlie beat me
[ January 30, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: Bath Tubs
Charlie and Jim,
This poses an interesting question. How does a contractor accept any job where there is existing electrical work that is currently in violation? Every time the code changes some part of the existing work may be in violation. Why is this particular situation more risky to the rrrusty? Isn't the contractor only responsible for the work he does? Your comments suggest that he could be held accountable for the old poorly done work as well. How do we know the violations noted were always violations? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, just not quite understanding the reason for your comments and I'm interested in your thoughts.
Bob
Charlie and Jim,
This poses an interesting question. How does a contractor accept any job where there is existing electrical work that is currently in violation? Every time the code changes some part of the existing work may be in violation. Why is this particular situation more risky to the rrrusty? Isn't the contractor only responsible for the work he does? Your comments suggest that he could be held accountable for the old poorly done work as well. How do we know the violations noted were always violations? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, just not quite understanding the reason for your comments and I'm interested in your thoughts.
Bob
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Bath Tubs
If i read him right this is a new home that either had limited or no inspection.Since he did not bring up the violations this would be hard to judge the inspector.Some things are violations that just go beyond what an inspector is likely to find.Now if i walk into a home that is believed to been wired to code then my liability is limited to what area i worked in.Should this be a permitted job and the inspector observes other violations (other than grandfathered items)then he will require them corrected.And yes this does happen often on remodels.In this case he says this house has violations.Should he get involved in this house he might very well end up defending his work in court should anything happen with this house.
This is a judgement call an i too would RUN.
Let some hungry new guy have this.Far too often i have found myself in the middle of a mess started by others.To walk in knowing its a disaster filled with violations would be foolish.
Others here might disagree.This is just my opinion.
Would i take a job with violations being known?
Yes if they understand they are getting fixed first
[ January 30, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
If i read him right this is a new home that either had limited or no inspection.Since he did not bring up the violations this would be hard to judge the inspector.Some things are violations that just go beyond what an inspector is likely to find.Now if i walk into a home that is believed to been wired to code then my liability is limited to what area i worked in.Should this be a permitted job and the inspector observes other violations (other than grandfathered items)then he will require them corrected.And yes this does happen often on remodels.In this case he says this house has violations.Should he get involved in this house he might very well end up defending his work in court should anything happen with this house.
This is a judgement call an i too would RUN.
Let some hungry new guy have this.Far too often i have found myself in the middle of a mess started by others.To walk in knowing its a disaster filled with violations would be foolish.
Others here might disagree.This is just my opinion.
Would i take a job with violations being known?
Yes if they understand they are getting fixed first
[ January 30, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
Re: Bath Tubs
So when this guy who is trying to save money by doing a lot of work himself to finish the rest of the interior so he can sell the place and has no clue about the code does things like put up rope lighting on a tiny ledge and runs the wires inside the wall up to the outlet because he watches these DIY shows or reads a book or gets this hair brain idea about wanting to plug in rope lighting above the tub finally gets someone to buy the place and it burns down and kills the people who bought it who is the loser? I'm sure I could write down all the violations that I see I some disclaimer and have the present homeowner sign off but If a fire can be prevented should we Try to stop it or stand by? I mean we ARE supposed to prevent fires aren't we?
Any suggestions about the tub lighting? Is Low volt safe to use above the tub?
So when this guy who is trying to save money by doing a lot of work himself to finish the rest of the interior so he can sell the place and has no clue about the code does things like put up rope lighting on a tiny ledge and runs the wires inside the wall up to the outlet because he watches these DIY shows or reads a book or gets this hair brain idea about wanting to plug in rope lighting above the tub finally gets someone to buy the place and it burns down and kills the people who bought it who is the loser? I'm sure I could write down all the violations that I see I some disclaimer and have the present homeowner sign off but If a fire can be prevented should we Try to stop it or stand by? I mean we ARE supposed to prevent fires aren't we?
Any suggestions about the tub lighting? Is Low volt safe to use above the tub?
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Bath Tubs
When you end up in court paying a lawyer,and your insurance goes up to the point your out of buisness ,then you can at least say i tried to fix this.
Not sure about your state but in Fl an owner builder can pull a permit and do all the trades himself.When he does this he signs a paper saying he won't hire any UNLICENSED workers.
Where will this guy be when your in court.
And his lawyer will be saying something like his client hired you because he wanted it done right.
art 411 low volts and maybe 680 to some degree as it may fall under "similar"
I am trying to find the article on the height above tub im thinking it was at or close to 8 feet above highest water level.HELP!!
fOUND IT 410.4 D
[ January 31, 2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
When you end up in court paying a lawyer,and your insurance goes up to the point your out of buisness ,then you can at least say i tried to fix this.
Not sure about your state but in Fl an owner builder can pull a permit and do all the trades himself.When he does this he signs a paper saying he won't hire any UNLICENSED workers.
Where will this guy be when your in court.
And his lawyer will be saying something like his client hired you because he wanted it done right.
art 411 low volts and maybe 680 to some degree as it may fall under "similar"
I am trying to find the article on the height above tub im thinking it was at or close to 8 feet above highest water level.HELP!!
fOUND IT 410.4 D
[ January 31, 2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Bath Tubs
rrusty,
remember: Amps is Amps. Low Voltage doesn't always mean safer.
The low voltage lighting on a GFCI protected circut will not have GFCI protection on the load side of the transformer.
In that case you would be better off with 120v. lights on a GFCI circut.
But, I too would try to shy away from this job.
rrusty,
remember: Amps is Amps. Low Voltage doesn't always mean safer.
The low voltage lighting on a GFCI protected circut will not have GFCI protection on the load side of the transformer.
In that case you would be better off with 120v. lights on a GFCI circut.
But, I too would try to shy away from this job.
Re: Bath Tubs
One of the challenges to doing this job is in complying with 410.4 (D). I'm curious if rope lighting is classified as a "cord-connected luninaire". If so, then there is no way to comply with article 410.4 (D) except by moving the rope lighting up to at least 8 ft above the edge of the tub. However, it seems that a case could be made that the rope lighting with molding is a kind of wall sconce, and I don't see what part of 410.4 (D)would prohibit this at 6 ft above the tub. The rope lighting would still have to comply with 410.4 (A), which would mean the rope lighting would have to be suitable for at least damp locations. I think it could be argued that 6 ft above the tub is a damp location, not a wet location. As far as finding a method of wiring into the existing box, this has to be done in a code compliant way where the end result is suitable for this damp location. Also, the box cannot be just covered over with molding, since this would violate 314.29. However, it seems that with a little creative carpentry, you could cut a section of molding and make it hinge upwards to make the box accessible, which would put you in compliance with 314.29. These are a lot of ifs, and you would probably want to run it by your inspector to see if this would be acceptable to him/her. And the bottom line is, if the customer is not willing to pay for you to do the job to code, you should walk away.
Jason Rand
One of the challenges to doing this job is in complying with 410.4 (D). I'm curious if rope lighting is classified as a "cord-connected luninaire". If so, then there is no way to comply with article 410.4 (D) except by moving the rope lighting up to at least 8 ft above the edge of the tub. However, it seems that a case could be made that the rope lighting with molding is a kind of wall sconce, and I don't see what part of 410.4 (D)would prohibit this at 6 ft above the tub. The rope lighting would still have to comply with 410.4 (A), which would mean the rope lighting would have to be suitable for at least damp locations. I think it could be argued that 6 ft above the tub is a damp location, not a wet location. As far as finding a method of wiring into the existing box, this has to be done in a code compliant way where the end result is suitable for this damp location. Also, the box cannot be just covered over with molding, since this would violate 314.29. However, it seems that with a little creative carpentry, you could cut a section of molding and make it hinge upwards to make the box accessible, which would put you in compliance with 314.29. These are a lot of ifs, and you would probably want to run it by your inspector to see if this would be acceptable to him/her. And the bottom line is, if the customer is not willing to pay for you to do the job to code, you should walk away.
Jason Rand
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Bath Tubs
" However, it seems that a case could be made that the rope lighting with molding is a kind of wall sconce"
This amounts to us designing a fixture.No UL on this.And if not cord connected just how do we terminate that rope.Keep in mind we can't alter a UL fixture.
The intent i believe was to keep us from reaching this light.JMO.
Run this past AHJ before you do this.
I did do this once but i had the 8 feet.Be certain the rope is anchored,if you do this.
" However, it seems that a case could be made that the rope lighting with molding is a kind of wall sconce"
This amounts to us designing a fixture.No UL on this.And if not cord connected just how do we terminate that rope.Keep in mind we can't alter a UL fixture.
The intent i believe was to keep us from reaching this light.JMO.
Run this past AHJ before you do this.
I did do this once but i had the 8 feet.Be certain the rope is anchored,if you do this.
Re: Bath Tubs
Thank you for the feed back and the more I think about the violations; I'll be willing to bet he did the wiring himself and I'll let this one slide; And hope when the house sells a sharp? HI sees all of the issues; Do you think if I check with regional or have a cup of coffee with the inspector that anything can be done?
Thank you for the feed back and the more I think about the violations; I'll be willing to bet he did the wiring himself and I'll let this one slide; And hope when the house sells a sharp? HI sees all of the issues; Do you think if I check with regional or have a cup of coffee with the inspector that anything can be done?
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Bath Tubs
Myself i think i would leave this alone.The AHJ did the final so let them take the fall if they miss the violations.You did your job if you warned him about his problems.
Myself i think i would leave this alone.The AHJ did the final so let them take the fall if they miss the violations.You did your job if you warned him about his problems.
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