Bathroom Luminaire

[he1029]

410.10 (D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cordconnected
luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires,
lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle)
fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft)
horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the
bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing
and includes the space directly over the tub or shower
stall. Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension
of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) veltically
from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be
marked for damp locations, or marked for wet locations where
subject to shower spray.

Are we permitted to put a porcelain socket in the "zone" (8ft x 3ft), since it specified to the types of fixtures that are not allowed in the "zone"? Or any fixture that is not damp-rated is not permitted in the zone?

 

[infinity]

In the zone requires a minimum of damp location rated, if subject to shower spray then it needs to be wet location rated.

 

[he1029]

I'm not referring to the second portion of the code where it talks about the outside dimension of the bathtub or shower. We're talking about in the "zone", where it doesn't specify damp location. It just says what type of fixture isn't permitted in the "zone".

 

[infinity]

For an exposed lampholder you would need to be outside of the footprint of the tub.

 

[goldstar]

If you're ceiling is only 8' you cannot use a key-less light fixture. However, if you have a vaulted ceiling and you're over the 8' restriction (that's 8' above the rim of the tub or shower stall threshold) then technically speaking you can. But, then that would leave you open to having a light fixture outlet in a location where a HO (who obviously isn't going to like the key-less fixture) decide to install their own decorative fixture and thus violate the code section. I don't envision a EI accepting your installation if you're ceiling is (border line) too low.

 

[he1029]

We are actually outside the footprint of the bathtub. This light fixture is located within 3ft horizontally from the tub and in the 8ft vertically of the rim.

 

[he1029]

Again, we're not talking about the actual outside dimensions of the shower stall. We're in the 3ftx8ft "zone", where it clearly states the types of fixtures that are not permitted in that "zone".

 

[al hildenbrand]

410.10 (D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cordconnected
luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires,
lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle)
fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft)
horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the
bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing
and includes the space directly over the tub or shower
stall. Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension
of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) veltically
from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be
marked for damp locations, or marked for wet locations where
subject to shower spray.

Are we permitted to put a porcelain socket in the "zone" (8ft x 3ft), since it specified to the types of fixtures that are not allowed in the "zone"? Or any fixture that is not damp-rated is not permitted in the zone?

As I recall, a porcelain lampholder is a special case in that it is not actually a "luminaire". This is an interesting question.

Article 100 Definitions

Luminaire. A complete lighting unit consisting of a light source such as a lamp or lamps, together with the parts designed to position the light source and connect it to the power supply. It may also include parts to protect the light source or the ballast or to distribute the light. A lampholder itself is not a luminaire.

 

[mwm1752]

Again, we're not talking about the actual outside dimensions of the shower stall. We're in the 3ftx8ft "zone", where it clearly states the types of fixtures that are not permitted in that "zone".

I understand your point as the language is not as clear as intended -- My understanding is that the zone 3' x 8' is considered "over the bathtub/shower". Your ? merits a bit more research & I'll get back with you.

 

[mwm1752]

I found some interesting comments with the ROC & ROP section in the 2008 NEC - I believe it answers you question to wheteher or not a keyless fixture can be mounted outside the footprint of the tub/shower & within the bathtub zone. I would question the difference in a track as opposed to an open bulb fixture. Last thought, a keyless is not a luminaire but I would interprete the keyless is subject to rule.

NEC 2005 Says no IMHO
D) Bathtub and Shower Areas No parts of cord-connected luminaires (fixtures), chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended-luminaires (fixtures), lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the zone directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires (lighting fixtures) located in this zone shall be listed for damp locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray.
2008 ROC --Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows: Change of language
(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord connected luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the space directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for damp locations, or marked for wet locations where subject to shower spray. [ROP
18-40a, 18-50a]
Substantiation: This change helps to clearly identify the location and the requirements for lights in showers and bath tubs.

18-51 Log #1906 NEC-P18 Final Action: Accept States outside of the foot print is not considered a damp location/ still prohibits certain types of luminaires
(410.4(D))_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: James W. Carpenter, International Association of Electrical Inspectors
Recommendation: In the last sentence of 410.4(D), delete the phrase “in this zone” and replace it with the phrase “within the actual footprint of the bathtub rim or shower threshold” to read as follows:
“(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord-connected luminaires (fixtures), chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended-luminaires (fixtures), lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the zone space directly over the tub or shower stall.
Luminaires (lighting fixtures) located in this zone within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be listed for damp or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray.”
Substantiation: The word “zone” was changed in the last sentence of the first paragraph to make it consistent with the text used in 404.4 for switches and in the title for 406.8 for receptacles. The more appropriate word seems to be space since zone indicates the three-foot space outside of the footprint or space of the actual tub or shower. The text, as presently worded in the 2005 NEC, would imply that the area within three feet from the edge of the bathtub or shower is a wet or damp location requiring the luminaire to be listed for wet or damp locations. This would also logically carry over to any receptacle, switch, or luminaire that was located on the wall within this three ft distance, thus requiring the same wet or damp location rating for these devices or luminaires. Switches and receptacles would then be required to have a weatherproof cover installed. This three-foot area from the edge of the tub or shower is constructed of drywall with regular texture and paint. Any wetness or dampness in this area would cause rapid deterioration of the paint and drywall.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13

 

[he1029]

I'll be honest
The way I see it is
The code committee went out of they're way to specify which lights aren't permitted in the zone otherwise they should've wrote "any luminair located above the actual outside dimension of the shower stall or in the zone needs to be damp rated"
And the difference between a lighting track and an open bulb fixture is that a track light has exposed live parts even with the heads installed
So I see it different then an open bulb fixture
But again I might be wrong and that's why I'm asking
How do you guys see it as?
Thanks again

 

[infinity]

I'll be honest
The way I see it is
The code committee went out of they're way to specify which lights aren't permitted in the zone otherwise they should've wrote "any luminair located above the actual outside dimension of the shower stall or in the zone needs to be damp rated"
And the difference between a lighting track and an open bulb fixture is that a track light has exposed live parts even with the heads installed
So I see it different then an open bulb fixture
But again I might be wrong and that's why I'm asking
How do you guys see it as?
Thanks again

You have two separate things to contend with, 1) the 8'X3' zone and 2) the footprint of the tub/shower up to 8' in height. The former prohibits only the fixtures on the list within the zone. The latter has no prohibitions for fixtures outside of the footprint of the tub/shower or 8' above.

 

[he1029]

I know that
And I am talking strictly about the zone here
And my point is that if you have to use damp rated Lumineers in the zone then the code should of said 1 paragraph as follows
In the foot print of the shower stall or in the zone up to 8 ft dry location lumineers are not permitted
However the code does not say that, it specifies the type of lumineers which are not permitted in the zone regardless if it's damp rated or not, obviously they're trying to make a point of which ones are not permitted and any other type of luminair or open bulb fixture are OK
And yet again I may be wrong
And that's why I am asking

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[mwm1752]

Now you have to get an interpretation from your AHJ -- advice has been given & whether or not anyone here agrees or disagrees with how you view the information may not be substantial with your AHJ. Use the info given, make your case, see where it goes.
IMO certain luminaires are not able to be installed within the outside 3'x8' zone & inside the footprint. Only within the footprint shall any compliant fixture be a minimum of damp location rated. Since I have seen the 2008 NEC ROP & ROC my point of view has changed.
Keep in mind though prior to the 2008 NEC I would interprete certain luminaires are not able to be installed and all luminaires shall be a minimum of damp location rated within the outside 3'x8' zone & inside the footprint.
I have been through 14 code cycles and can tell you some changes go by unnotice until questioned - that is why you talk to the AHJ with prepared information.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You have two separate things to contend with, 1) the 8'X3' zone and 2) the footprint of the tub/shower up to 8' in height. The former prohibits only the fixtures on the list within the zone. The latter has no prohibitions for fixtures outside of the footprint of the tub/shower or 8' above.

Trevor-- I don't read it as you do. If you inside the footprint of the tub and above 8' from the threshold then any fixture that is rated damp or wet is allowed. I cannot see anything that states they are damp location rated but we have used then in damp areas before.

 

[he1029]

Now you have to get an interpretation from your AHJ -- advice has been given & whether or not anyone here agrees or disagrees with how you view the information may not be substantial with your AHJ. Use the info given, make your case, see where it goes.
IMO certain luminaires are not able to be installed within the outside 3'x8' zone & inside the footprint. Only within the footprint shall any compliant fixture be a minimum of damp location rated. Since I have seen the 2008 NEC ROP & ROC my point of view has changed.
Keep in mind though prior to the 2008 NEC I would interprete certain luminaires are not able to be installed and all luminaires shall be a minimum of damp location rated within the outside 3'x8' zone & inside the footprint.
I have been through 14 code cycles and can tell you some changes go by unnotice until questioned - that is why you talk to the AHJ with prepared information.

Thanks
And I agree
I just wanted to hear from other people in the trade prior to asking the AHJ

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[infinity]

You have two separate things to contend with, 1) the 8'X3' zone and 2) the footprint of the tub/shower up to 8' in height. The former prohibits only the fixtures on the list within the zone. The latter has no prohibitions for fixtures outside of the footprint of the tub/shower or 8' above.

Trevor-- I don't read it as you do. If you inside the footprint of the tub and above 8' from the threshold then any fixture that is rated damp or wet is allowed. I cannot see anything that states they are damp location rated but we have used then in damp areas before.

Which part do you disagree with?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Which part do you disagree with?

The other day I read the quote totally wrong... sorry. I agree.

 

[Martin B]

I may be in over my head here (pun intended),:angel:

The NEC is a minimum standard, just cause you can doesn't mean you should. If I bought a house for my fam. to live in and it had a porcelain lamp holder over the tub I would remove it. And if was just outside the tub (within 3') I would change it to a more suitable fixture.

 

[kwired]

I may be in over my head here (pun intended),:angel:

The NEC is a minimum standard, just cause you can doesn't mean you should. If I bought a house for my fam. to live in and it had a porcelain lamp holder over the tub I would remove it. And if was just outside the tub (within 3') I would change it to a more suitable fixture.

If I bought a house and that porcelain lampholder were more then 8 feet above the tub I would be fine with it. My wife OTOH would probably want something to replace it with that is prohibited by code because it is prettier:roll: