bathroom remodel

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rocketscientist

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I am remodeling a bathroom and could use some advice. The vanity light is on a 15A circuit shared by another room's lights. The receptacle is on a 20A circuit shared by the other bathrooms and fed by a 20A GFCI breaker. I was wanting to install a fan and a light in the shower. I am wondering if they need to be on a GFCI circuit or can they simply be added to the 15A light circuit? And if they need to be GFCI protected, would it be better to run a new 20A circuit to this bath and remove it from the other circuits so that I can have the lights and receptacle on one circuit? The light I bought for the shower is rated for that use and the fan is just a vent, no heater or integrated light fixture.
By the way, I am an electronics engineer with 20 yrs experience: 15 yrs in embedded microprocessor systems for missile guidance systems and now I work for Square D designing metering products. I have done some home wiring in the past, but that was before I had designed products that had to go through safety testing (UL 508, IEC 61010-1, etc.) So I am knowledgeable, but still somewhat new to the electrical code, and I just want to do things right so that it will be safe and legal when it comes time to sell the house.
 
Re: bathroom remodel

Only if the manufacture instructions require the fan to be on a GFCI circuit. other wise just put it on with the lights it does not pull that much current.

it be better to run a new 20A circuit to this bath and remove it from the other circuits so that I can have the lights and receptacle on one circuit?
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Lights should not be put on with the 20 amp GFCI circuit as if you trip the GFCI you won't have any light.

210.11(C)(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.
Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A).
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210.23(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).

Exception: The small appliance branch circuits, laundry branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), (2), and (3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section .
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If you look at the requirments of 210.11(C)(3) it says if we do use one 20 amp circuit to supply all the outlets in a single bathroom then it must comply with 210.23(A), Then we look at 210.23(A) and the exception states that the 20 amp circuit is allowed to supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.
 
Re: bathroom remodel

Thanks, Wayne.

So there is no need to run a new line? I can just run the new light and the fan off the existing 15A circuit? That would be great.

Also, the light is a recessed can and it says "keep insulation 3 inches away from fixture." Does that same rule apply to ceiling joists? The place I want to put it lands about 1/4" from a joist. I can move it but then it would be off center with the tub/shower and would look funny in my opinion (too close to wall or over the edge of the tub).
 
Re: bathroom remodel

Originally posted by hurk27:
If you look at the requirements of 210.11(C)(3) it says if we do use one 20 amp circuit to supply all the outlets in a single bathroom then it must comply with 210.23(A), Then we look at 210.23(A) and the exception states that the 20 amp circuit is allowed to supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.
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Wayne are you saying that the NEC will not let me feed the lights and fan in a single bathroom from the receptacle circuit?

What then is the purpose of 210.11(C)(3) Exception?

What are "outlets for other equipment" if not lights, fans, etc? :confused:

Section 210.11(C)(3) already tells us at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s).

Bob

[ November 27, 2004, 03:54 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: bathroom remodel

Why not use a fan/light combo instead of seperate units. To me that would look better. I have never seen a fan that does not require gfci protection when installed over a tub or shower. You can not add this fan to the existing gfci receptacle circuit as it currently serves other bathroom receptacles. You can add it to the light circuit and gfci protect that or isolate the receptacle circuit to that bath only and add it to that. The recessed light must be at lest 1/2" from combustible materials. 410.66 (A) This isn't exactly rocket science..... :D
 
Re: bathroom remodel

Scott,
Not rocket science! Ha ha ha... no. But really, that's what I'm talkin' about. I used to think I was a pretty smart guy, but I've been reading the posts on this forum (I don't have a copy of the NEC here and I thought this would save me trip to work to get one) and I recently had to read the IEC 61010 spec (safety compliance for CE mark) for a product I recently designed and took through agency compliance testing, and now I'm not so sure. All this code stuff is tough to apply to each individual application, and these safety specs are so open to interpretation, I don't know how you guys do it without degrees in law and philosophy. It seems each of you has his own opinion of how to interpret the spec, obviously there is no obvious correct answer. Give me the good old days of rocket science, where no one cared about safety. It was supposed to hurt people, IT WAS A BOMB! LOL

Oh, and I guess the fan/light combo would work, but I wanted the light over the shower and the fan in the middle of the room. The room is sort of L-shaped and the vanity light lights the rest of the room fine, but the shower is dim and could use a light. And I thought the fan should be closer to the water closet, if you know what I mean. ;-)

So, if the fan is not directly over the shower does it need the GFCI? The manufacturer did not mention it in the install sheet. Obviously Broan doesn't get UL registration in the same lab as us. The guys we work with pick our manuals apart and make sure everything is covered, safety-wise anyway, although the CE mark is definitely tougher than UL, and we have to get both.

Anyway, thanks for the replies, guys. This is a cool site.
 
Re: bathroom remodel

The fan does not need gfci protection in this case. I have never seen a recessed shower light that needs gfci protection at all. Looks like you are good to go. As for the NEC I don't think even a law degree would help interpret some of the stuff in there.
 
Re: bathroom remodel

Cool deal! Thanks, Scott. That is going to make this job a whole lot easier.

By the way, if the bathroom receptacles are on one circuit which is protected by a 20A GFCI breaker, can I simply replace the receptacle with a new designer one rated at 15A? I bought a bunch of 15A GFCI receptacles to replace the ones in the bathrooms because I thought they weren't up to code, but then I saw that the breaker was GFCI... So anyway, what I am thinking is: why is it better to put the GFCI circuit at the breaker rather than at the point of load? Now if the hairdryer, curling iron or whatever trips the GFCI, I have to go to the garage to reset it rather than resetting it right there in the bathroom. That seems like a less practical solution. Any thoughts guys?
 
Re: bathroom remodel

That's pretty much it. As long as the receptacle is GFIC protected it's correct. I think you already know this but if you changhe out the GFI breaker and put the protection at the receptacles don't forget your other bathroom.

Coming from a different dicipline myself I thought it didn't make sense to use a 15 amp receptacle on a twenty amp circuit. It seemed it wasn't rated for it. Twenty amp equipment has a different plug configuration that isn't accepted by a 15 amp receptacle.

Edit: typo repair

[ November 27, 2004, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: bathroom remodel

It's 210.11(C)(3) and it's Exeption. And it refers back to 210.23(A)

It's a loop and depending on where you decide to stop it may be interpreted differently. I think that's the cause of the confusion.

It's usually accepted as stated in 210.11(C)(3) Exeption.
 
Re: bathroom remodel

Say you have a dedicated 20 amp circuit feeding receptacles in two baths and a dedicated circuit feeding lights/fans in those two baths. Can you GFCI protect the lights/fans with a GFCI outlet in the first switchbox at the entry to a bathroom, more than 36" away from the vanity, or do you have to go with a GFCI breaker?
 
Re: bathroom remodel

First, why would you protect the fans and lights with a GFCI? It's not required.

Secondly, the GFCI protection that the receptacles need can be handled in any of several ways. One is a GFCI breaker. Another is to have a GFCI receptacle at the sink location in each bathroom. Another is to use a GFCI receptacle in the first bathroom, and feed the other bathroom receptacles from its load-side terminals.
 
Re: bathroom remodel

If you put the fan in the shower area it must be GFCI protected. If you are going to protect the fans, you might as well do the rest of the lights. If you run a dedicated receptacle circuit and a dedicated lighting/fan circuit for the bathrooms, can you still put one GFCI receptacle on the lighting curcuit away from the vanity or must you use a GFCI breaker?
 
Re: bathroom remodel

Originally posted by finnegan: If you put the fan in the shower area it must be GFCI protected.
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Help me with this. 210.8 only requires GFCI for certain receptacles. Where in the NEC is the requirement that you are describing?
 
Re: bathroom remodel

It has been invited to my attention that the original post was from a person who is not an electrician, and who is seeking assistance in performing electrical installation work at home. The Forum rules prohibit us from providing that kind of assistance. Now that I am aware of that circumstance, I would normally delete the thread. However, a side issue has been started. That side issue (GFCI Protection in bathrooms) should have been started as its own thread.

Therefore, I will ask two things. First, I must ask that no more comments be made on the original topic. If any are made, I will delete them, and possible close the thread. Secondly, I would ask that we come to a quick conclusion on this side discussion. If we need to debate the GFCI question at any length, then let's start a new thread to do so.
 
Re: bathroom remodel

the GFCI protection that the receptacles need can be handled in any of several ways. One is a GFCI breaker. Another is to have a GFCI receptacle at the sink location in each bathroom. Another is to use a GFCI receptacle in the first bathroom, and feed the other bathroom receptacles from its load-side terminals.
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From a user-friendly point of view a GFCI in each bathroom, feeding any additional receptacles in that room is a good choice. That way a user can reset a tripped GFCI without a trip to another room or the panel.
 
Re: bathroom remodel

Originally posted by finnegan: So you think the receptacle is a problem even if it is out of the normal use area?
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To whom was this question addressed, and what does it mean? What problem? What is "out of the normal use area"?

How about formulating your question more clearly, and starting a new thread? I would prefer to close this one, since it can no longer address its original topic.
 
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