Bathtub lighting area

[jmereid]

I am trying to interpret 410.10D where it concerns a bathroom remodel. The customer is installing a soaker tub that will be located within a few inches of their new double vanity. This double vanity comes with 2 wall hung medicine/mirrored cabinets. According to the article, the zone is 8' vertical and 3' horizontal from top of bathtub rim. Does this mean that I cannot install a wall light over the nearest vanity since it is within the 3'?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Read the first part. Wall sconces are fine

(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cordconnected
luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires,
lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle)
fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft)
horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the
bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing
and includes the space directly over the tub or shower
stall. Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension
of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically
from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be
marked for damp locations, or marked for wet locations where
subject to shower spray.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Believe it or not this is compliant because the fixtures are listed for damp location..

 

[mwm1752]

Believe it or not this is compliant because the fixtures are listed for damp location..

there is not a hand held spray attachment so Dennis is technically correct -- I'd call this picture "thinning out the herd" IMHO i ask myself, Would I let my children or grandchildren us this? when it comes to borderline decisions.

 

[ActionDave]

there is not a hand held spray attachment so Dennis is technically correct -- I'd call this picture "thinning out the herd" IMHO i ask myself, Would I let my children or grandchildren us this? when it comes to borderline decisions.

Lighting bolts aren't going to jump out for pete's sake.

 

[jmereid]

Thank you for your assistance. I thought that was the case but sometimes I question my own judgement.

 

[mwm1752]

Lighting bolts aren't going to jump out for pete's sake.

Take a squirt gun & shoot a hot lamp Dave, while sitting in the water of the tub, let me know if that gets your heart rate up -- children play & splash in the tub, thats what they do and may know enough to replace the broken lamp, but will they turn off the light? who's to know-- you may not get shocked but the glass may cut you -- Just because I am not willing to take IMO unneccesary risks, the NEC does not stop you. We can disagree on the concern level.

 

[kwired]

Lighting bolts aren't going to jump out for pete's sake.

Probably not, but to some children that is a swimming pool which means play time not relaxation time:happyyes:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Probably not, but to some children that is a swimming pool which means play time not relaxation time:happyyes:

Yeah but I bet that is a master bath not a kids bath.

It is compliant but it seems to scare people to death

 

[ActionDave]

Take a squirt gun & shoot a hot lamp Dave, while sitting in the water of the tub, let me know if that gets your heart rate up -- children play & splash in the tub, thats what they do and may know enough to replace the broken lamp, but will they turn off the light? who's to know-- you may not get shocked but the glass may cut you -- Just because I am not willing to take IMO unneccesary risks, the NEC does not stop you. We can disagree on the concern level.

And a vanity light not more than a couple feet away from the tub in more modest bathrooms is subject to the same hazards.

 

[mwm1752]

And a vanity light not more than a couple feet away from the tub in more modest bathrooms is subject to the same hazards.

True vanity lights are within the 3' from the footprint along with receptacles that are not allowed in the footprint area. this is directly over a tub - not to the side or over a counter -- and in most shower/bath cases, shielded by a shower curtain -- Your opinion that there is no danger with damp fixtures within a tub footprint can be validated by the NEC. I have the right to be more carefull with mine.

 

[kwired]

Yeah but I bet that is a master bath not a kids bath.

It is compliant but it seems to scare people to death

I know, but maybe since the kids think it is a swimming pool maybe we need to apply art 680, or at least install gas lamps instead of electric lamps and let the gas man worry about any hazards with having a light there.:happyyes:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I know, but maybe since the kids think it is a swimming pool maybe we need to apply art 680, or at least install gas lamps instead of electric lamps and let the gas man worry about any hazards with having a light there.:happyyes:

Sure you can also install an equipotential bonding if you like. Nothing says you can't. :lol:

 

[John120/240]

Believe it or not this is compliant because the fixtures are listed for damp location..

When I have done this same installation we always had a GFCI ahead of the switch.

 

[arnettda]

Believe it or not this is compliant because the fixtures are listed for damp location..

Explain to me how this is legal but a chain hung fixture 7 feet above the tubs rim is not? I do not understand the reasoning of the code? Is it because you can not buy a damp rated chain hung fixture?

 

[stickboy1375]

When I have done this same installation we always had a GFCI ahead of the switch.

I didn't bother with the GFCI protection, the fixtures have EGC's attached to them, so I didn't see the point.

(I did the job in the picture Dennis posted, FYI)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Explain to me how this is legal but a chain hung fixture 7 feet above the tubs rim is not? I do not understand the reasoning of the code? Is it because you can not buy a damp rated chain hung fixture?

My guess is that the chains themselves don't make good contact and if the wire were to short to the chain then it is possible that the chain may get energized without tripping the breaker.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

(I did the job in the picture Dennis posted, FYI)

Yep I stole if from Stickboy years ago. I thought it was a good visual for a compliant install.

 

[kwired]

Explain to me how this is legal but a chain hung fixture 7 feet above the tubs rim is not? I do not understand the reasoning of the code? Is it because you can not buy a damp rated chain hung fixture?

Just a guess here - number of incidents reported of some kind of accident involving a pendant in that situation are maybe higher? There have been code changes particularly in the GFCI requirement area that only need to have one death and it is enough to convince CMP's to make a change. IIRC the change a few years ago to GFCI requirements in commercial kitchens that includes all 120 volt receptacles was triggered mostly by an electrocution that happened because of a failed EGC in a cord to a refrigerator - yet everyone that questioned the need for the change when it first came out was why do we need to have GFCI on refrigerator receptacles.

 

[stickboy1375]

Just a guess here - number of incidents reported of some kind of accident involving a pendant in that situation are maybe higher? There have been code changes particularly in the GFCI requirement area that only need to have one death and it is enough to convince CMP's to make a change. IIRC the change a few years ago to GFCI requirements in commercial kitchens that includes all 120 volt receptacles was triggered mostly by an electrocution that happened because of a failed EGC in a cord to a refrigerator - yet everyone that questioned the need for the change when it first came out was why do we need to have GFCI on refrigerator receptacles.

Commercial cord and plug equipment takes the worse abuse, all the equipment is on wheels for a reason, and the cleaning crews are just animals when moving such equipment to clean behind... :happysad: