Being too helpful!

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PaTerminator

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Location
Lehigh Valley PA
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Electrical Contractor
I just lost another job to a potential customer by explaining what work needed to be done.
This guy was a house flipper that had hired a GC to do a rehab on a twin. The work that the GC had done so far, was unacceptable in all trades. Basically, looked like a total hack job.

So, the house flipper had severed his ties to this GC halfway thru the project and was going to take over managing it himself. There were lots of obvious violations: No grounding or bonding at the service, #12s on 30 amp breakers for the electric heat, no smokes anywhere, Lots of 2 and 3 gang switches with wires all butchered up etc? I doubt the previous GC had anybody licensed working there, or even pulled a permit.

With all this in mind, I explained that the only fixed price I could give him was to redo everything. He agreed that there could be a lot of unknowns but was hoping to salvage some of the work. So we agreed on a T+M arrangement and we walked thru and reviewed all of the work that I would be doing. The next day I fax over my insurance info and mail him a T+M contract like he requested. I don?t hear from him for a week. When I call him on the phone, he says that he?s got to cut costs, and he?s getting his brother-in-law to work at the house to take care of the electrical and plumbing.

I realized right then that I gave all the info to this house flipper he needed, and that now he could have someone else do the work.:mad:

I had a similar situation about a month ago with a homeowner that got over his head with a poolhouse project. He asked me to take over and finish it before x-mas and I said that I would have to go over everything because there were obvious issues with the wiring that he had done. Showed him what I would have to do for the first 4 hours, then explained how I would route a wire for the sub-panel. Said he'd call me that evening, never heard from him again.

I guess my question is this: How do you sell yourself to a job by showing problems and explaining what needs to be done, without giving too much info?:-?
 
Is there licensing required where you are? If so I would be making calls to the proper authorities.

The simple answer is just don't give too much info. Rather than say "the servcie needs grounding and bonding and this is how I'll do it...." Just say "there are issues with the service bonding and grounding that I will have to address."
 
most people don't know what "a grounding problem" is--they might just think it is something very serious and costly. stick to wording he understands and at the same time don't sound like "glume and dume"!! always leave an avenue open by saying "it isn't as bad as it could be"--don't just crucify the original installer. no doubt he went to the gc and explained that he did a terrible job and would have to pay to have it corrected.. you know it needs repair and you also know the best thing for the owner to do is hire you T&M....
 
Quote: "he says that he?s got to cut costs, and he?s getting his brother-in-law to work at the house to take care of the electrical and plumbing."


That is why you din't get the job, he has no money, and never intended to pay anyone.

We have plenty of these house flippers in the area and tey all do the same, they call contractors for estimates, hoping to get ideas on what to do then look for someone cheap to do the work, many of these guys had visions of making a fortune flipping homes, and got into trouble, when they discovered it was not that easy, and now with the sub prime problems, many of these bright ideas are going to loose it all, so may be best, you did not do work for him.
 
Considering the type of customer, what you've just experienced is somewhat normal. Certainly worth trying to get the work in the first place, but just don't be surprised when stuff like this happens with this type of lead. That's all this was, was a lead. Some leads are of lesser quality than others, for sure.
 
PaTerminator said:
I just lost another job to a potential customer by explaining what work needed to be done.
This guy was a house flipper that had hired a GC to do a rehab on a twin. The work that the GC had done so far, was unacceptable in all trades. Basically, looked like a total hack job.
:-?
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Don't believe anything said to you by the house flipper. He says that he hired a GC. That normally mean some bum off the street or low class handyman. The first thing to look for when you go on a job like this is a permit and if you don't see it ( not likely ) then ask about it. Ask for the name of the GC that started the job. I think you will find that they have a memory loss at this time and know nothing about said GC ( no name and no number). It was probably either him or his brother-in-law that did the work in the first place. I hate it when someone tries to feed me a line of BS and expects me to believe it.

What they are really looking for is some DA to take responsibility for all this hack work. They would like to have an invoice for a small amount of work and the rest never really happened.

If you can't just do a service change or some other work that can be segregated from the rest then walk away.

If he were going to hire a legitimate contractor he would have done so in the first place.
 
When he told me he let the GC go in the middle of the project, I was allready proceeding with caution. After I saw the work they did though, I would have done the same thing.:D What he said to me was that another flipper refered this GC to him and that they were cheaper.

I guess I'm unsure how to gain someones trust at an estimate without showing knowledge of the work that I'd be doing.:-? A salesman, I am not.
 
Why get so specific as to what you're going to do? Just state that your work will be done in accordance to any national and local codes that are in effect for the area.
 
PaTerminator said:
I realized right then that I gave all the info to this house flipper he needed, and that now he could have someone else do the work.:mad:
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There's a good argument for charging a fee for estimating that can be credited to the job if you get it.

Send him a bill for consultation for your time, as if that's what he intended to do when he "hired" you.
 
Start charging a "job site evaluation fee", it could be what u would charge for 1 hour of labor, and keep the walk thru limited to one hour or whatever $$$ u wish,if the HO or GC thinks the "jsef" is not something he or she wishes to pay then don't bother going out there, its a good way to weed out the price shoppers. And don't get to technical with the customer, do ur takeoff sit down at ur desk and do ur estimate, put together ur proposal and send it to the customer, If HO r GC agrees to the "jsef" which is collected COD, then at least if he or she rejects the proposal at least ur time at the job site is not wasted, u at least got paid for the time spent at said jobsite.:cool:
 
480,
I try to normally keep that wording, but in my area there is a great variation on what is " local code". For example in some townships, doing a service upgrade requires a house to have laundry, 2 countertops circuits, switched light in every room, arc faults on all bedrooms, and smokes in all the house. In a nearby township, they might only need one ground rod and a gfci at the panel. The first thing I do when I get a lead is research the rules where the job is. A lot of times it's by a third party agentcy that is very difficult to get answers from. I keep a file on every locality that I've worked in to get some insight on future jobs.
 
Larry and J-box,
I agree charging some sort of estimate would weed some of these situations. I try to get as much info from the person on the phone and give him a ballpark # if I have enough info. But there's some people that are just too vauge describing things or are just cluless in gereral.
 
PaTerminator said:
480,
I try to normally keep that wording, but in my area there is a great variation on what is " local code". For example in some townships, doing a service upgrade requires a house to have laundry, 2 countertops circuits, switched light in every room, arc faults on all bedrooms, and smokes in all the house. In a nearby township, they might only need one ground rod and a gfci at the panel. The first thing I do when I get a lead is research the rules where the job is. A lot of times it's by a third party agentcy that is very difficult to get answers from. I keep a file on every locality that I've worked in to get some insight on future jobs.
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Sorry but it sounds like your inspectors do not understand how to apply the codes.
 
satcom said:
Sorry but it sounds like your inspectors do not understand how to apply the codes.
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You can adopt the NEC as it is, or you can adopt it with amendments. The NFPA doesn't care.

If a local AHJ adopts amendments, then they have changed the code, and it can be challenging to keep up with everyones' little changes.

One city I work in will allow you to upgrade to a larger service without touching the wiring in the house. Another requires the entire house to be brought up to current codes. Most others have a 'shopping list' of things required if you ugrade the service.

It's not the local inspector doesn't necessarily know how to enforce the Code, it's their changing the NEC (if that's what they adopt).
 
A lot of times people get a couple of estimates for work. Most of the time this is recommended by so called experts. If you don't know anything about the work you need done, getting a couple of estimates to compare prices and suggested services is probably a good idea for them, less so for the EC.

You can't win all the bids that are selected by the lowest price. If you do, you are probably not charging enough.

I like the idea of charging a flat fee to come out. I am not even sure I would apply it to the work. It costs you time and money to come see what they have to give them an estimate. Why should you do it for free? OTOH, maybe the cheap people would not pay, but if that is the case, you probably are not out anything since you would not have gotten the job anyway.

As for bringing things up to code, in a flipping situation, unless it adds value somehow, I see no reason to do no more than the minimum requirements. If you jurisdiction allows you to do a service upgrade of a 50's era house w/o putting in GFCIs, I see nothing wrong with that. You might point out to the seller that a home inspector might want to see such things, but leave it up to him to decide.
 
It is not a loss if you consider it tuition.

Everyone needs to recognize red flags. This job had red flags, caution tape and bio hazzard signs posted all over the place.

I would have quickly eyeballed it, quoted it high enough to cover anything, doubled that and got a 50% deposit.

There is plenty of good work out there. Don't settle for less.
 
480sparky said:
You can adopt the NEC as it is, or you can adopt it with amendments. The NFPA doesn't care.

If a local AHJ adopts amendments, then they have changed the code, and it can be challenging to keep up with everyones' little changes.

One city I work in will allow you to upgrade to a larger service without touching the wiring in the house. Another requires the entire house to be brought up to current codes. Most others have a 'shopping list' of things required if you ugrade the service.

It's not the local inspector doesn't necessarly know how to enforce the Code, it's their changing the NEC (if that's what they adopt).
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"One city I work in will allow you to upgrade to a larger service without touching the wiring in the house. Another requires the entire house to be brought up to current codes. Most others have a 'shopping list' of things required if you ugrade the service."

Yes and the city that requires the entire house to be brought up to code, is doing a strech usually because they are trying to enforce, the existing code on older homes, we don;t have that problem here, we have a rehab code.

He is in Lehigh Valley PA, the only thing a electrical contractor needs to work there is a pick-u p and a gun rack, the inspectors there need a brother in law on the city payroll and a newer pick-up to get an inspectors job. Just mention the NEC to anyone out there and you will hear them laughing all the way up the road.
 
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satcom said:
He is in Lehigh Valley PA, the only thing a electrical contractor needs to work there is a pick-u p and a gun rack.
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This gun rack you speak of, would this be considered as a license or insurance? :grin:
 
satcom said:
"

He is in Lehigh Valley PA, the only thing a electrical contractor needs to work there is a pick-u p and a gun rack, the inspectors there need a brother in law on the city payroll and a newer pick-up to get an inspectors job. Just mention the NEC to anyone out there and you will hear them laughing all the way up the road.
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It is frustrating when similar jobs like service upgrades have different requirements, I'm constantly changing clauses in contracts to cover myself. Very time consuming as I didn't take typing class seriously when in high school.:rolleyes:
My other least favorite thing is debating to renew a liscense in a township, If you pay the fee, there's not much paperwork except the check. But a bunch of those every year start to add up. But if you let one lapse and then go back later to renew it, everything has to be updated and in some cases, notarized.
 
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