Bid Estimate for Upgrading Electrical Service

[DeFreitas Enterprises]

Hey guys,

First post on the site. I have been here through google searches and I am excited to finally have a reason to post and get all the help. I am a big forum user, specifically for the dual sports and motorcycles.

Here's what I've got going on-

I recently heard back from a local insurance company who wants to go through with a solar system for their building. Currently, in National Grid territory in MA, there is a cap of 10 kW AC for systems to get net metered. The building is not too big, but I had to only offer 40 panels on 250 W inverters because of the cap. He called me up, and asked about this.


Long story short, we are considering upgrading his 120/240 service to a 200 A, 120/208 three phase service. I have broken this down to the following steps.

1.) Submit NG work order and pay their estimate
2.) Complete customers service change and equipment (as needed) to accept the new three phase service entrance cables.


I could be making a cardinal sin asking for bid estimates on this forum. I would like to say that this will be the companies FIRST job period, and I am really excited to jump right into a commercial, three phase installation. Having to make a service upgrade is just icing on the cake to prove what the company (and myself) can accomplish.


I have thought about it, and I would like to make an offer to the building owner. He does not want to upgrade the service if it is not going to be too expensive. I want to be able to offer to him, before knowing myself, a complete bid which INCLUDES paying for the service upgrade in addition to the PV system.


I will be meeting with him next week, where I hope to audit the site and see what his gear is. I know this information would be helpful to everyone to actually be able to estimate what it is going to cost.



The PV system will cost about $60,000. I would like to know about how much it will cost to upgrade his service. If anyone has the experience to split it up, and say National Grid will cost X dollars and the customer's work X dollars that would be extra helpful for me as well. Without looking at the numbers too much, I think anything more than $20,000 for the service upgrade would start to make the PV investment worse than just installing the 40 panel max single phase system.


Thanks in advance to anyone who helps out.

-Alex DeFreitas

 

[mjf]

I don't think you'll get any type of accurate estimate without a site inspection by prospective bidders.

 

[DeFreitas Enterprises]

I don't think you'll get any type of accurate estimate without a site inspection by prospective bidders.

I was hoping there was someone on the forum who had upgraded 120/240 to 120/208. I know it will be helpful when I get pictures of the gear.

 

[kwired]

I was hoping there was someone on the forum who had upgraded 120/240 to 120/208. I know it will be helpful when I get pictures of the gear.

Done some similar upgrades that were fast and simple, others that took a lot of work. Depends on exactly what needs to be done.

I upgraded a school building one time where many sub panels were already newer single phase panels. Was lucky enough to purchase three phase panels that I could easily just change the guts out and snap existing breakers back in - and of course pull new feeder conductors through existing raceway. But that was only an easy fix for some existing feeders to convert them so they would balance load across phases more so then if left as single phase feeders - still had a lot of work on that job in upgrading service itself as well as the added load that caused the need for the upgrade in the first place.

 

[DeFreitas Enterprises]

Done some similar upgrades that were fast and simple, others that took a lot of work. Depends on exactly what needs to be done.

I upgraded a school building one time where many sub panels were already newer single phase panels. Was lucky enough to purchase three phase panels that I could easily just change the guts out and snap existing breakers back in - and of course pull new feeder conductors through existing raceway. But that was only an easy fix for some existing feeders to convert them so they would balance load across phases more so then if left as single phase feeders - still had a lot of work on that job in upgrading service itself as well as the added load that caused the need for the upgrade in the first place.

Awesome good stuff. Saw a few of your posts on other threads. I had fun reading some pages of one where the phrase "amps per phase" was ripped apart haha.

This is what I'm looking for without having the current information yet. I just want to have a few things to say about it to the building owner a few days from now, and then tell him I will provide a complete estimate after I look at the gear.


Being the first job and having little savings so far, I know having him pay for the upgrade before I install the PV provides the least risk for me in terms of profitability. However, the risk just gets passed along to him if things come up and he is left with a $30,000 to $40,000 service upgrade. I realized I could give him less risk if I bid the entire job up front. The risk is on me now if it goes over budget, but if I am savvy enough with the bid then I can do the upgrade and have some extra profit as well.

I am fully confident bidding solar installations, but excited to be already expanding my comfort zone and doing more in depth installations.


The idea behind this (I realized I didn't mention) is that you can interconnect 25 kW AC of solar on three phase service, but only 10 kW AC on split phase 120/240. I can fit almost 70 solar panels on the building, and with three phase I can put up to 100 panels under the net metering cap.

Thanks again. This forum is going to be a big reference for my commercial installations.

-Alex

 

[DeFreitas Enterprises]

I upgraded a school building one time where many sub panels were already newer single phase panels.

Do you remember what the work order from your utility ended up costing to pull an extra conductor from the street? I was hoping it will be $5000 from NG and $5000 for an electrician and I to upgrade the gear as needed.


Maybe I am being too optimistic but this is why I was thinking of bidding him and extra $20,000 - $25,000 and I can potentially see an extra $10,000 at the end.


I do not want to beat this guy up, I just am in a hard place to assume this risk with no savings to pay out if I lose money on the job.


If I am confident it will cost say $15,000, then I can bid him at say $22,000 and hope I come up around the $15,000.

 

[J.P.]

Really would have to see it. I could be a simple meter base and panel back to back. Or it could be the pipe isn't big enough for the extra conductor and is under the concrete to a panel in the middle of the building.....

Basically be fair with your pricing and do a good job. You know you crews capabilities ( or lack thereof ) better than anybody.

 

[J.P.]

Do you remember what the work order from your utility ended up costing to pull an extra conductor from the street? I was hoping it will be $5000 from NG and $5000 for an electrician and I to upgrade the gear as needed.


Maybe I am being too optimistic but this is why I was thinking of bidding him and extra $20,000 - $25,000 and I can potentially see an extra $10,000 at the end.


I do not want to beat this guy up, I just am in a hard place to assume this risk with no savings to pay out if I lose money on the job.


If I am confident it will cost say $15,000, then I can bid him at say $22,000 and hope I come up around the $15,000.

Give him both prices after you find out what the 3 phase power will cost to get there.

Don't push something the customer doesn't want if he goes with the smaller package.

 

[DeFreitas Enterprises]

Or it could be the pipe isn't big enough for the extra conductor and is under the concrete to a panel in the middle of the building.....

I have not designed a commercial system since leaving my previous job in August. I can see the rust starting to show haha! I did not even consider underground service entrance. What kind of design engineer am I?

Here are the street view pictures. I am not sure about one of the poles, but it certainly looks to be to be an underground service drop based off this conduit. Damn...

You know you crews capabilities ( or lack thereof ) better than anybody.

Haha I do not have a crew (just myself) so yes I do know my capabilities! I am certainly pushing into new territory with bidding service upgrades. That's why I came to the best place I knew for free advice

I think forums are the most powerful, amazing tools on the internet today. The fact that someone can post a question and thousands of more experienced, qualified people read and help for free is just awesome to me. I have been on the side of answering questions and giving my knowledge on the dual sport forums, but for now, I'll stick to gaining knowledge as oppose to giving knowledge on this forum.

Thanks guys.

 

[kwired]

Do you remember what the work order from your utility ended up costing to pull an extra conductor from the street?

I generally don't get too involved in this area - they negotiate with owner usually on what happens here, I may provide some input on what I think is best but customer ultimately has final decision on any options.

On the school job I referred to before they were bringing new three phase primary under a street and to a pad mount, I had to run secondary 100 feet or so the rest of way to building - old single phase service came from a different direction and was eventually abandoned. New added loads came to new gear, new three phase feeders ran to existing sub panels, some of which were new enough and same series as current three phase panels so did not have to do much to the panel cabinet itself but swap interior bus assembly with a three phase that fit same cabinet.

Cost of POCO equipment and install varies sometimes depending on how much return they will see on their investment. If you have customer with a significant usage they will charge less for initial install then if you needed similar sized equipment for demand purposes yet has limited usage.

 

[mbrooke]

Single phase solar above X amount will cause uneven voltages out on the feeder.

 

[kwired]

Single phase solar above X amount will cause uneven voltages out on the feeder.

but you could have multiple single phase systems balanced across the phases as well.

 

[kwired]

Alex- as far as extra $$$ to the customer to upgrade to the three phase it all comes down to what the investment will be and the expected return time on that investment. Plus the ability to pay for that initial investment, if you have to borrow to pay that increases the costs and needs considered in the return on investment.

Something that takes 5 years to pay for itself is generally seen as an ok investment, less is even better. If it takes 10 or more years - usually not seen worth the investment unless the original equipment was in need of replacement for other reasons.

 

[mbrooke]

but you could have multiple single phase systems balanced across the phases as well.

You do, but if only one customer is outputting a large number of generation across a single phase?

 

[GoldDigger]

One thing that I do not get is how the 10k cap for net metering magically gets removed if it becomes a three phase service.
Part of the reason for the 10k limit is business related, not phase imbalance related.
NG might accept a higher power limit on a three phase connection but still not offer net metering.
So the economically effective size for the system could be smaller based on the timing of the customers own local loads. Exporting power at wholesale rate has a longer payback period than banking it for use at another time.

 

[DeFreitas Enterprises]

Well now that we're talking ROIs I have the three photos of his cash flow. This is what I want to be able to offer to him.

Currently, the most expensive system would cover the service upgrade. I priced it out at $20,000 in my model. The benefit of this is that "in theory" he will get 30% of the cost of the upgrade back due to the ITC affiliated with purchasing a solar system.

I need to meet with an accountant and discuss this and make sure I am not getting myself or him into trouble.


So, if I cover the upgrade and charge him an extra $20,000, then he would get back an additional $6000 due to the ITC.


Take a look at the three photo attachments. These are the cash flows for the 3 different options. The $60,000 system ignores the fact that he is paying something additional to upgrade the service.


From an investment standpoint, the 40 panel system has the highest ROI percentage, but he can see make an extra $80,000 if we upgrade to 3 phase and have the full 67 panels.

 

[DeFreitas Enterprises]

but you could have multiple single phase systems balanced across the phases as well.

Effectively this is what the enphase cabling does for a three phase install. Each microinverter outputs to one of the phases. The cabling has 5 conductors in it, alternating which phase the microinverter outputs to.

I forgot the number of panels has to be divisible by 3 for phase balancing so I will have to offer 66 panels not 67.


If he goes with the 40 panels, it will be a standard 240V split phase installation.

One thing that I do not get is how the 10k cap for net metering magically gets removed if it becomes a three phase service.

Part of the reason for the 10k limit is business related, not phase imbalance related.

The limit does not go away it is just raised to 25 kW AC instead of 10 kW AC. This doesn't help MW sized installations, but it helps the small scale commercial installations which the big solar companies do not target as profitable installations anyways.

 

[GoldDigger]

Effectively this is what the enphase cabling does for a three phase install. Each microinverter outputs to one of the phases. The cabling has 5 conductors in it, alternating which phase the microinverter outputs to.

I forgot the number of panels has to be divisible by 3 for phase balancing so I will have to offer 66 panels not 67.


If he goes with the 40 panels, it will be a standard 240V split phase installation.

Exact phase balance down to the last panel should not be necessary.

 

[DeFreitas Enterprises]

I realize the size limit of the photos make them very difficult to see. The limit for excel files is larger so I put the three cash flows in an excel. Their graphs are underneath the cash flow.

So, with a $20,000 upgrade, he is looking at a year 4/5 packback and 18.25 % IRR. I don't want to bid it at $30,000 and have it come to $15,000 but I certainly do not want to be on the other end.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Inspection of the customer's existing motor load and the nameplate ratings of them is paramount. Motor's not rated for the lower voltage of 208 will be a hindrance.