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brantmacga

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
there's a long rant that could go along w/ this, but i'll spare you that. basically, i was given these 'plans' to submit a proposal. its an old dollar general store that's been partially converted to a church, and now there remodeling the whole thing. here's what i got :

plan.JPG


yep, that's 8x10 paper straight off the deskjet, not to scale, drawn on some cheap home designer program. have fun!
 
Sounds like design/build. Have fun. If you bid it, write a very detailed proposal to CYA.

I get crap like this every once in a while. Honestly, I give it my best effort with the information given, and plan things with my best guesses. Complie the guesses in the proposal in detail, and let the change orders ensue if I win the work. Don't take this bid request too personal. Some people just don't have a clue. You can make it a money maker if you have the temper for it.
 
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Sounds like design/build
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wasn't supposed to be, but it was. i did my take-off on a drive to and from disney world this weekend (and at night in the hotel while the family was sleeping) and just finished typing it all up a few minutes ago. considering i know who i'm bidding against (unlicensed, uninsured, etc. . .) i really don't think i'm going to get it ($$$$) but it'll be well worth it if i do. we'll see.
 
Are they having some sort of bidder's meeting for this thing? I mean... equipment schedules and fixture schedules or anything to go along with the floor plan? Has this even gone through plan review (if required) yet? Reason I ask is because every once in a while someone will shoot me a floor plan just to see if it's something that holds any interest for me, then more info will follow if I am interested.
 
brantmacga said:
considering i know who i'm bidding against (unlicensed, uninsured, etc. . .) i really don't think i'm going to get it
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I've always wondered how breaking the law like that squares with the fundamentals of popular US church doctrines? Unlicensed and unpermitted work, particularly in smaller churches, seems to be rampent in my observation.
 
we had a meeting to go over the requirements; bid package included a fixture schedule, most of which are 96" t-12 strips that are currently on the ceiling but must be moved to accomodate new walls etc. . . (yay!). from what i saw, most are not working and are missing end caps, covers and such. this is in a one horse town; no plan review required. there's a big sign at the planning office that says "effective 2002 all electricians must be licensed to buy a permit" but its never been enforced. am i painting a picture yet?
 
1) It?s a church, so look out; historically for me they are not profitable jobs.

2) It?s a design build, which is good because there are ways this will work in your favor. I get plans like this all the time and make money doing these jobs (not churches).

3) DO NOT give then any plans, drawings, layouts or schedules that your office makes for this job while bidding, or the next round of bids will include your layouts for the other guys to price.

4) SCOPE! Make a detailed scope of what they get for your price, and only do work with a contract in place.
 
ItsHot said:
Hey Brant "you can do it"!! A church in a dollar General?
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Reminds me of the movie Winn-Dixie...

As nicely as you can, I'd point out the importance of being licensed and insured and encourage them to check into this on all their bidders. If they "get it" and value this, great. If they don't, perhaps it's for the best to not get the job anyway if that's how they think.
 
If by some stroke of luck (?) you actually get this job, ABSOLUTELY specifiy who from the church is authorized for sign for changes. Religious organizations are governed by committees that will ALWAYS try to get out of paying changes. Make it very clear what your scope of work is, pricing method for changes, and payment method for invoices and changes. Don't forget to request additional time for each change order. Each one might not look like much, but they all add up over time.
 
Yes and beware of the carrot on a stick they sometimes use. Be assured any carrot they show you will be out for competitive bid later, its not yours, you cant have it.
 
romexking said:
Religious organizations are governed by committees that will ALWAYS try to get out of paying changes. .
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My church doesn't. I sit on the board. I require permits, licenses & payment for changes when required. Just so you all know, not all churches are cheap.:wink:
 
I certainly didn't limit my generalization to just churches. I used to deal with several chuches, temples, and mosques, and each had their own unique way of diminishing my profits whether it be by requesting volunteer work, making many changes without comprehending the financial/production impact those changes make, delaying completion of a project until fundraising increases, wasting my time with "what ifs" on a project, restricting access at the last minute without notification, ect.

Although your congregation may be different, I imagine that the people that are on the board of most congregations are blind to the above "profit killers"
 
One of the last churches I did, has a member of the congregation that was also one of my competitors. He was running their budget numbers and evaluating the bids for them, and would pick my C.O.s to pieces. He also made a deal with them to furnish the light fixtures for the job, and cleaned out his warehouse with junk that I got to make work at my cost and install.

When it came carrot time for the second building (3 story private school), he shows up after bid day and starts picking my bid (I am low) apart and pulls out his budget numbers to show us all what it “should” cost. At this point I had enough of this crap and asked him in front of the GC and Church PM that if his numbers were so perfect why didn’t he do the job? He stammers is bit and I stood up, respectfully withdrew my bid and walked out the door.

A week later the GC sends me a contract for my original price, which I threw it in trash. A month later I see his trucks on the job and the GC tells me that he ended up eating crow and doing the job for his budget. Just to make if fair and show I had no hard feelings, I donated every junk fixture in my warehouse (with a schedule of values and job specific fixture designations) to the church for their new building; they were very grateful.
 
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ITO said:
Just to make if fair and show I had no hard feelings, I donated every junk fixture in my warehouse (with a schedule of values and job specific fixture designations) to the church for their new building; they were very grateful.
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That's great , I love it. I have always liked doing onto others myself.
 
well i dropped it off this morning. contract stated that i would do the work as was specified in the plans. i just wrote in the price of the changes i had to make for code and such, but gave no detail as to what they were and will not unless my bid is accepted. anyway, i came in just above $28k and that was for 91 receptacles, 25 switches, 16 recessed lights, 2 2x4 lay-ins, 3600' of MC cable, about 300 feet of emt, some thhn, and then a few exit signs, emer. lights, etc. . some incandescent light fixtures, and about 300 labor hours. i'm not crossing my fingers.
 
All this reminds me of church job I was offered a few years back....I started out changing the service and a few sub-panels as one contract. A short time later, the "renovation" job came up - NO PLANS.

I walked the job with a trustee and a vicor (or bishop or something?)....the thing started to stink...I gave them a price....a few weeks go by, I am passing by the place and stop in to see if they are going forward with the job....and boy are they!
No permits, no EC, no plans, no clue....all volunteer and 1 journeyman from NYC. Good luck and AMF.


Good luck with this thing should you get it....keep a daily log....all MACs signed...etc.
 
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