Blue tinted water

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jdes913

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A few weeks back I posted about a problem my daughter is having at her new home. The water is tinted blue and has large amounts of copper in it from the copper pipes rapidly eroding. The water company thinks it is a grounding problem. We are no closer to a solution now then we were a few weeks ago. Another post gave me an idea and I have a question. I appologize in advance for my ignorance. In a residential panel, the ground and neutral are connected to the same bar. Is this a code requirement or can the ground and neutral be connected to totally seperate bus bars?
 
Yeah, test the water. The acid will eat holes in the copper pipes if the Ph is wrong.:confused:
 
jdes913 said:
Is this a code requirement or can the ground and neutral be connected to totally seperate bus bars?
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In most applications if the panel is where the main breaker is located, the Neutral and all Grounds (GEC and EGC's) must be bonded together.

As Stickboy asks, did you have the water tested, especially for PH level?

Roger
 
Yes we had the water tested by the water company and an independant lab. Both tests showed a high copper particulate count. The house is in a small subdivision with about 40 homes. Everyone in the subdivision is having the problem to some degree.
 
The water co. said they think it is a grounging problem. The power co. came out and said they tested their equipment and it is ok, they are blaming the builder's electrical contractor. I've researched other web sites and the problem exists all over but there are no specific solutions, but all agree it is an electrical problem, either in the street or something the contractor did in each house. The local elected officals are now involved. I don't know if thats a help or not.
 
Please have the pH tested. A low pH (7.5) can cause corrosion, the EPA has a requirement under the Lead and Copper rule to correct the pH. The municipal water system where I am has a corrosion control facility that chemically treats the water to raise the pH, we have about 56,000 customers.
And while grounding may cause corrosion of copper, its probably from electrical equipment in your house creating DC current on the water pipe, if the current is away from the pipe then metal is going from the pipe to the earth. This DC current is from hair dryers, drills and similar. AC current does not cause corrosion.
I have a copy of the American Water Works Association study on grounding and corrosion, which explains it, based on extensive research.
A corrosion engineer could be of great assistance to you.
The water company may want to deny this issue.
to summarize:
1. Test the pH
2. Ask your water company about the EPA lead and copper rule (about 1996) and how they have complied.
 
It seems as though you are ignoring the PH angle. From experience, (my water has a blue tint and causes blue stains in my tub, sinks, and toilets) it is caused by a low PH level eroding the copper pipes.

Roger
 
My daughter had an independant lab test the water. I would imagine that the ph was tested, but I will make sure.
 
I also contacted the American Water Works Association, but have not heard back from them yet. I will ask about the grounding and corrosion report. Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions, any other ideas will be greatly appreciated.
 
jdes913 said:
I also contacted the American Water Works Association, but have not heard back from them yet. I will ask about the grounding and corrosion report. Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions, any other ideas will be greatly appreciated.
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The only other thing to do is rip out the copper pipes and install a non-metallic piping system.... My father-in-Law had this done....
 
tom baker said:
And while grounding may cause corrosion of copper, its probably from electrical equipment in your house creating DC current on the water pipe, if the current is away from the pipe then metal is going from the pipe to the earth. This DC current is from hair dryers, drills and similar. AC current does not cause corrosion.
I have a copy of the American Water Works Association study on grounding and corrosion, which explains it, based on extensive research.
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I'd be interested in that study, as well as knowing what electrical equipment superimposes DC back into the supply.

If there is electrolytic action going on between the pipe and the earth, wouldn't any reaction be on the outside of the pipe, away from the water?

I suggest using a clamp-on ammeter on the water service pipe, and as an experiment, also with the water-pipe bond disconnected (do this with the main breaker off for safety).
 
A company I used to work for years ago had the same problem in an apartment complex out in the country. It was served by independant water wells. They had to install a complete water purification system. It was either too rich in iron or sulphites. ( The tennants with blond hair was starting to get green streaks), plus the green/blue stains in the sinks.
Have the water checked.
 
The low pH will dissolve the protective oxide film in the copper pipes and the lead in the solder, if present. Thats why its callled the lead and copper rule. Lead is a proven toxic substance. Electrical insulation contains lead, don't chew the wire clippings or you'll get lead poisoning. And in some cases, if in the water lines, it can be reduced by running the water for a minute or so.
 
tom baker said:
Please reply back with the tested pH. My water has the pH raised from 7.5 to 8.5
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The testing showed that the PH is 8.5. This week the EPA is testing a sample, we'll see what they come up with.
 
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I seem to recall something similar out in CA (Pleasenton? SF Bay area). In that case, the tester was able to measure multiple volt differences between the water Co's anodes along the streets. It turned out that the pipeline wasn't "grounded enough" and that there was some induced current along the entire pipeline. Since the service laterals were actually grounded, that's where the current went. (I also wonder if the lateral is copper, galv, or pvc.)

I realize that's all sort of vague, it's been a long day.
 
To keep you up to date on this problem. The builder brought in an independant testing company to look at the electrician's and the power company's work. They found no ground rods at the on site transformers that feed the sub-division. Their report states that "the water main is providing a much better groung path than the ground grid". The currant flow is causing electrolysis, which breaks down the copper and makes the water turn blue.
The builder wants to install a dielectric union in each house, which sounds like a good idea, and wants to move the water pipe ground wire above the union which, in my opinion, would give that wire no grounding capability. I told my daughter not to let the builders man do anything at this point. The power company hasn't responded to the testing company's findings yet.
 
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