bonding faucet copper in plastic system

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goillinisparky

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I had a student ask a good question last week that I am not 100% sure of an answer to.
If a dwelling has ALL plastic water piping, would 250.104 require bonding to each faucet, (be it in a sink-faucet-bathtub-hose bib) which would have a short piece of metal water piping stubbed down from them?
It seems that 250.104 would technically require bonding. :roll:
Has anyone encountered this issue?
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

IMO that piece of Cu is part of the faucet. I do not think it is required to bond to that piece. :D
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

I agree with Charlie, but I would also like to add that the scope of the code (90.1) is practical safegaurding. It doesn't seem practical to me to bond every 3" piece of copper in a house.
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

NEC 250.104a requires the metal water piping "system" to be bonded, I would not consider the faucets to be a metal water piping system and therefore would not be required to be bonded. My opinion anyway.
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

May I twist this a bit & throw in a hydromassage bathtub? Would the motor have to be bonded to the copper supply valve per section 680.74 2002 NEC?
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

Originally posted by rcarroll:
May I twist this a bit & throw in a hydromassage bathtub? Would the motor have to be bonded to the copper supply valve per section 680.74 2002 NEC?
Click to expand...
Yes.

Remeber that the bonding requied by article 680 is a different type of bonding: equipotential.
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

I do not believe that is the intention of this code article. I think that bit of water piping poses less danger than a metal shower curtain rod. But that was an excellent question.
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

Originally posted by jeffrose:
I do not believe that is the intention of this code article.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your stance, but see the fine print note under 680.26 and tell me how that is different than hydromassage tub bonding.
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

I do not see why these faucets would need to be grounded unless there was a likleyhood that they could become energized.

Consider the fact that when you wire a hyromassage bathtub you do not need to bond the metal drain fitting if it is connected to a PVC drain. It simply has no chance of becoming energized. You do need to, however, bond the motor to the cold water pipe if it is copper so as to put the motor housing, the occupant of the tub and the water piping system at the same potential.

In the case of the faucet there is no difference in potential between it and anything electrical.
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

Rhombus: You are talking about two different things here.

First: When you talk about bonding a hydromassage bathtub, you are talking about equipotential bonding to eliminate the possibilty of a voltage gradient, not the liklihood of it becoming enrgized.

Second: Nowhere in 250.104(A) will you find the phrase "likely to become energized".
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

ryan_618:

Thank you for your comments.

I was just tossing out some ideas that could be used to form an opinion.

Likely to become energized is used in the code on occation. Again I was just tossing out some ideas.

The code is not always cut and dry so I often extrapolate from what I know to be true to make a decision.

Granted there is a difference between grounding and bonding, but some times they overlap.

If you do not need to bond a metal drain fitting because there is no potential difference than why would you need to ground a faucet that has no likely hood of a potential difference.

"Potential Difference" is what it is, whether you are talking about bonding or grounding. You can use a fancy term like "voltage gradient" if you want, but if there is no "potential difference" there is no flow of electricity. That is my principal.
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

Grounding and bonding serve two distinctly different purposes. You are correct to say that if there is no potential difference, current will not flow.
As Ryan has stated, bonding at pools, hydromassage tubs, etc... (680.26), is not the same as Bonding (part V) in Art 250.
Read250.4(A)(1), 250.90, and then read 680.26, and tell us if you do not agree. :)

Pierre

[ March 28, 2004, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

Bonding can be on both the ground and the active line side of a circuit. This is why the wording should never be changed.

Bonding, is shorting between two conductive components.
Example; A bonding jumper is installed around a splice in a crane rail.

Grounding is essentially bonding, but bonding is not always grounding.

Grounding is when the conductor is solidly connected to the dirt.

Bonding is to insure continuity.
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

Bennie
If you are talking about connections, I agree. If you are talking about principles, I disagree. Mixing these up mixes me up, your post is confusing.

Pierre
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

Sorry: Is all of it confusing or some part? I will try to paraphrase, and hope to be more clear.
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

Originally posted by bennie:
Bonding, is shorting between two conductive components.

Example; A bonding jumper is installed around a splice in a crane rail.

Grounding is essentially bonding, but bonding is not always grounding.

Grounding is when the conductor is solidly connected to the dirt.

Bonding is to insure continuity.
Click to expand...
So grounding is always bonding. ;)

It will change.
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

I agree with Bennie on this.

I also don't want to get off on a tangent here, but I would like to see the term grounding disappear and be replaced by the word earthing. We have used the terms grounding and bonding together for so long that, in my opinion, it will always be confusing because we have corrupted it.

For example: "Provisions shall be made to ground metal faceplates for switches, whether or not a metal faceplate is installed."

Well why the h*ll would I want to stick a metal faceplate in the dirt? Perhaps instead of grounding it, I will bond it to create a fault current path and reduce touch potential.
 
Re: bonding faucet copper in plastic system

In our area we have run across diffent inspectors opinions(imagine that). Some inspectors make us run a BOND for the whirlpool tub back to the cooper main in the mechanical room just before it changes to plastic. Some require the BOND from the pump to the copper stub on the faucet.
 
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