Bonding H2O to Structural Steel

Status
Not open for further replies.

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
What is your opinion on this code issue:

*1600A 3ph 480/277 service with CEE
*Structural steel in a IIIB building is bonded near the electrical room.
*Water service & metallic piping is far away from the electrical room.
*Contractor uses a bonding jumper from the bar joist to the metal water pipe up in the ceiling.

Is this a violation?

I feel as though this is a violation of 250.104(A)(1)

There may be electrical continuity which would be common sense but it does not meet the requirements of the above reference.

What say you????????
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
It should be bonded to panel and grounding system per 250.104 A(1) and sized per 250.66 in my opinion.
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
The last condo project I did the inspector made us come from panel to water pipe to bond it. Probably 8ft wire. Not sure if it matters where its bonded it was easy for us because it was close to panel.
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Do the bar joist meet the requirements of 250.52(A)(2)?

250.52(A)(2)
1) No
2) No
3) No
4) Don't know

The metal frame is bonded per 250.104(C), and is not being used as an electrode. I can see where you are going with this one. Very interesting and could possibly comply with 250.104(A)(1) if it is considered one of the "electrodes"

Does anyone routinely use this method without any problems from the inspectors?
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
it would be easier to accept if the jumper was from structural steel to the water pipe within 5 feet of entering dont you agree?, ivsenroute
No because the water pipe in this case comes to the building in plastic then converts over to copper and is not being used as an electrode. It just needs to be bonded and I don't care how far away it is for bonding purposes. I see your point though.
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
it would be easier to accept if the jumper was from structural steel to the water pipe within 5 feet of entering dont you agree?, ivsenroute
I think it would depend if the ahj says it meets the exception. I see 250.104 requires it to be bonded but I dont think its clear where to do it. Good question....
 
No because the water pipe in this case comes to the building in plastic then converts over to copper and is not being used as an electrode. It just needs to be bonded and I don't care how far away it is for bonding purposes. I see your point though.
That being said then the water pipe needs to be bonded to the GES. If the bar joist qualifies as structural steel and is part of the GES then i see no problem
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
I would look at a couple of things:
1st, does the metal frame of the building meet the requirements in 250.52(A)(2) to be a grounding electrode ?
If it does, then I have no problem with it being used to connect to the metallic water system.
If it does not meet the 250.52(A)(2) requirement, then the E/C needs to connect it to one of the electrodes specified in (A)(3), (A)(5) or (A)(7).
2nd: Does the metallic water line meet the requirements of 250.52(A)(1) to be an electrode ? (10 ft or more in contact with earth).
If so then I would require the connection to the water to be within 5 ft of where the piping enters the building. It could still originate from an effectively grounded steel frame.
If the water pipe is not an electrode, then it doesn't matter where the bond is located.
 
I would look at a couple of things:
1st, does the metal frame of the building meet the requirements in 250.52(A)(2) to be a grounding electrode ?
If it does, then I have no problem with it being used to connect to the metallic water system.
If it does not meet the 250.52(A)(2) requirement, then the E/C needs to connect it to one of the electrodes specified in (A)(3), (A)(5) or (A)(7).
2nd: Does the metallic water line meet the requirements of 250.52(A)(1) to be an electrode ? (10 ft or more in contact with earth).
If so then I would require the connection to the water to be within 5 ft of where the piping enters the building. It could still originate from an effectively grounded steel frame.
If the water pipe is not an electrode, then it doesn't matter where the bond is located.
I agree completely but if the steel is not an electrode isnt it STILL required to be bonded and when bonded could then be used to bond the water which was not an electrode as previously posted
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I believe if the structural steel is not being used as an electrode and the water pipe is then the GEC cannot be splice without an irreversible compression type conn. listed for the purpose as stated in 250.62(C).

Not exactly sure what is going on. If the water pipes are not an electrode then I believe the install is okay. What say y'all.
 
I believe if the structural steel is not being used as an electrode and the water pipe is then the GEC cannot be splice without an irreversible compression type conn. listed for the purpose as stated in 250.62(C).

Not exactly sure what is going on. If the water pipes are not an electrode then I believe the install is okay. What say y'all.
dennis if you ran a gec to the incomming water pipe and then 3' away you ran a #6 to a ground rod from the water pipe those connections wouldn't need to irreverable. Isn't that the same idea
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
What is your opinion on this code issue:

*1600A 3ph 480/277 service with CEE
*Structural steel in a IIIB building is bonded near the electrical room.
*Water service & metallic piping is far away from the electrical room.
*Contractor uses a bonding jumper from the bar joist to the metal water pipe up in the ceiling.

Is this a violation?
Assuming the steel is an electrode (and we always treat it as it is) not a violation and I have done the same thing.

Here is a handbook example.


 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
If the building steel was an electrode then I would say this was OK.

Since the CEE is the electrode and the building steel is only bonded then this is not OK.

It is my opinion that the bond to the water pipe cannot come from the building steel that is not the electrode. It will have to come back to the service, GEC, or electrode.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top