Bonding Meter Base

[moab88]

My APCO doesn't allow equipment ground to pass through or connect in meter base. I have dual meter base (linked below) coming out of each side I'll have 200 Amp disconnects feeding 2 separate 200 A panels for duplex. If the neutral lugs in meter base are bonded to case I shouldn't need the equipment ground lug also. If neutral lug isn't grounded how am I supposed to bond neutral without making any ground connection within the base? This is an AEP approved meter base also.

 

[Little Bill]

You don't run an equipment grounding conductor (EGC) to/from meter base. I think what you meant was a GEC (grounding electrode conductor). Your POCO doesn't allow the GEC in their meter. The neutral is bonded to the can in the meter base and you just run your neutrals from the meter to the disconnects. You then bond the neutral to the can and EGC in the disconnects. Your GEC could connect to the neutral bar in the disconnects.
If you're doing an overhead, the GEC can connect to the neutral at the weatherhead.
Also, you start your EGC in the disconnects, so a 4-wire must be ran from the disconnects to the panels.

 

[moab88]

You don't run an equipment grounding conductor (EGC) to/from meter base. I think what you meant was a GEC (grounding electrode conductor). Your POCO doesn't allow the GEC in their meter. The neutral is bonded to the can in the meter base and you just run your neutrals from the meter to the disconnects. You then bond the neutral to the can and EGC in the disconnects. Your GEC could connect to the neutral bar in the disconnects.
If you're doing an overhead, the GEC can connect to the neutral at the weatherhead.
Also, you start your EGC in the disconnects, so a 4-wire must be ran from the disconnects to the panels.

This makes much more sense. So for example, I have dual meter base enclosure where my neutral will be bonded to the case. Coming out of the meter base my neutral will go to the neutral bar in each disconnect. Coming out of each disconnect I'll have a GEC which is connected to my neutral bar and going to my ground rods. What's the purpose of this ground lug then within the meter base? In the spec sheet is says Equipment Ground - Ground Lug?

 

[Little Bill]

This makes much more sense. So for example, I have dual meter base enclosure where my neutral will be bonded to the case. Coming out of the meter base my neutral will go to the neutral bar in each disconnect. Coming out of each disconnect I'll have a GEC which is connected to my neutral bar and going to my ground rods. What's the purpose of this ground lug then within the meter base? In the spec sheet is says Equipment Ground - Ground Lug?

Some POCOs will allow, or require, the GEC to land in the meter base. The smaller lug in the meter base is for that. I think it's a much better way to do the grounding but some POCOs won't allow it.

 

[tom baker]

Our state does not allow GEC connection in meter as it’s not accessible when nester is sealed.
The state will allow if POCO requires connection there.
I read that one reason the GEC is to be accessible is for disconnecting it if connecting an electric pipe thawing machine to frozen water pipes

 

[moab88]

Our state does not allow GEC connection in meter as it’s not accessible when nester is sealed.
The state will allow if POCO requires connection there.
I read that one reason the GEC is to be accessible is for disconnecting it if connecting an electric pipe thawing machine.

I'm just confused as to why this is an AEP approved meter base for my area but then the same AEP won't allow the GEC connection within this approved meter base? This is my first service upgrade and now I understand all the POCO jokes on here.

 

[Jerramundi]

What's the purpose of this ground lug then within the meter base? In the spec sheet is says Equipment Ground - Ground Lug?

This is for when the GEC IS allowed to connect in the meter socket enclosure. That's how we ALWAYS do it here in Chicago. Or at least in my experience that's what I've ALWAYS seen done by every guy I've ever worked for.

Just thought that might provide some added clarity. It's really just a difference of what is allowed and what isn't allowed depending on location and the preferences of the authorities having jurisdiction.

What you're describing (i.e. a POCO that does NOT allow the GEC to terminate in the meter socket enclosure) is a completely foreign idea to me, lol. I have NEVER seen a new service where the GEC does not terminate in the meter socket enclosure, which some people on here will find weird, but again, differences in location and preferences of those writing the rules.

 

[tom baker]

In my area, there are no meter sockets available with an EGC lug.
And again, in WA our AHJ does not allow
Terminating the EGC in the meter socket.
But, connecting the EGC in the meter socket or service drop is the best location as it’s a more direct path to ground for lightning

 

[Jerramundi]

I'm just confused as to why this is an AEP approved meter base for my area but then the same AEP won't allow the GEC connection within this approved meter base? This is my first service upgrade and now I understand all the POCO jokes on here.

The POCO doesn't manufacturer the meter socket. Milbank does.
(That is, barring some unknown "I'm my own grandpa" changing of names of companies that I'm unaware of).

The POCO just selects it as an approved product for use.
And Milbank is a very reputable brand, at least around here it is.
Every service upgrade I've ever been on has been a Milbank product.

 

[moab88]

The POCO doesn't manufacturer the meter socket. Milbank does.
(That is, barring some unknown "I'm my own grandpa" changing of names of companies that I'm unaware of).

The POCO just selects it as an approved product for use.
And Milbank is a very reputable brand, at least around here it is.
Every service upgrade I've ever been on has been a Milbank product.

I understand POCO doesn’t manufacture the meter base but you’d think they’d at minimum check to make sure the equipment they list as corresponding to their rules. So simply if they allow it then great I make my connection there and eliminates my GEC coming out of my disconnects. If not allowed , I simply remove this lug and make my GEC connections within each disconnect. If I make my connection within the meter base do I still bond neutral and EGC going to the panels within the disconnects?

 

[moab88]

I understand POCO doesn’t manufacture the meter base but you’d think they’d at minimum check to make sure the equipment they list as corresponding to their rules. So simply if they allow it then great I make my connection there and eliminates my GEC coming out of my disconnects. If not allowed , I simply remove this lug and make my GEC connections within each disconnect. If I make my connection within the meter base do I still bond neutral and EGC going to the panels within the disconnects?

I’m assuming yes either way now that I’m thinking about it bc this is first disconnecting means for both units

 

[LarryFine]

If I make my connection within the meter base do I still bond neutral and EGC going to the panels within the disconnects?

Absolutely. That bond is what makes sure that a line-to-ground fault makes the OCPD device behave as it would for a line-to-neutral fault.

 

[hornetd]

I think it's a much better way to do the grounding but some POCOs won't allow it.

Why do you believe it is a better place to do the grounding? Once the meter is installed and the seal applied you will have no access to the connection. I've always thought that a bad thing. Connecting the Grounding Electrode Conductor in the meter base enclosure is a practice that some suppliers insist on so that the neutral will be connected to earth at a point outside the building. Such utilities are trying to assure that there will be a connection between the neutral and a grounding electrode that you cannot readily remove. With at least one Grounding Electrode conductor outside the structure some of the current from a lightning strike or primary to secondary conductor power cross will have a path to ground that does not enter the structure.

Tom Horne

 

[hornetd]

Absolutely. That bond is what makes sure that a line-to-ground fault makes the OCPD device behave as it would for a line-to-neutral fault.

Larry
Are you referring to the bonding connection between the Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs) and the Grounding Electrode Conductors (GECs) OR are you referring to the bonding of the EGCs to the Neutral?

 

[Little Bill]

Why do you believe it is a better place to do the grounding? Once the meter is installed and the seal applied you will have no access to the connection. I've always thought that a bad thing. Connecting the Grounding Electrode Conductor in the meter base enclosure is a practice that some suppliers insist on so that the neutral will be connected to earth at a point outside the building. Such utilities are trying to assure that there will be a connection between the neutral and a grounding electrode that you cannot readily remove. With at least one Grounding Electrode conductor outside the structure some of the current from a lightning strike or primary to secondary conductor power cross will have a path to ground that does not enter the structure.

Tom Horne

It takes less GEC, you don't have to route wire back in the building/house, no need to bond two panels on a 400A service, sort of "one and done"!
In all my years of installing, I've never had to access the connection. Occasionally, I might have to get to a ground rod connection for some reason, such as damages from digging or lawn equipment, but that would be the case wherever the other end was connected.

 

[roger]

Why do you believe it is a better place to do the grounding? Once the meter is installed and the seal applied you will have no access to the connection. I've always thought that a bad thing.

Let me ask you, how many service calls have you had to fix a GEC connection in the middle of say a hurricane or a blizzard?
Why do the ungrounded and grounded conductors not need to be accessible after the meter is installed?

And actually the meter being installed and the can being sealed doesn't by definition render the inside of the can inaccessible.

 

[hornetd]

Let me ask you, how many service calls have you had to fix a GEC connection in the middle of say a hurricane or a blizzard?
Why do the ungrounded and grounded conductors not need to be accessible after the meter is installed?

And actually the meter being installed and the can being sealed doesn't by definition render the inside of the can inaccessible.

I asked and you answered. I just wanted to know why you thought it better. I'm not looking for a quarrel. The utilities in this area have been applying locks to meter socket enclosures for almost 20 years now. I'm not trying to imply that it's a code violation. But from a practical standpoint it does make the Grounding Electrode Conductor termination inaccessible.

Were do Blizzards and Hurricanes come into this. You lost me there.

 

[roger]

Were do Blizzards and Hurricanes come into this. You lost me there.

OK, forget the storms, how many times have you been called out in the middle of the night to address a bad GEC connection?

The point being, access to the GEC connection is a lame reason POCO's use for not wanting it in the meter can. Of all the connections in a meter can the GEC connection is probably the less likely to need to be repaired at any given time.

There is no reason for not allowing it in the meter enclosure except for some POCO engineers ignorance. I have never had any of said engineers answer the other question I asked about why the other connections do not need to be accessible.

 

[hornetd]

OK, forget the storms, how many times have you been called out in the middle of the night to address a bad GEC connection?

The point being, access to the GEC connection is a lame reason POCO's use for not wanting it in the meter can. Of all the connections in a meter can the GEC connection is probably the less likely to need to be repaired at any given time.

There is no reason for not allowing it in the meter enclosure except for some POCO engineers ignorance. I have never had any of said engineers answer the other question I asked about why the other connections do not need to be accessible.

I agree with you whole wholeheartedly. With the new requirement for an emergency disconnect outside of 1 & 2 family dwelling we will now have a place to put that connection which is not in the Meter Socket Enclosure and also not 20 to 30 feet above the ground. I know why many electrical coops still require driven rod electrodes to be connected to the neutral of the Service Entry Conductors at the service drop on the load side of the of the splice to the Service Entry neutral conductor. When I see it done by running the Grounding Electrode Conductor down through the service mast it cracks me up. The model service standard written by the Rural Electrification Administration (REA) for use by the new electric coops they were created to fund did not anticipate the use of conduit for service entry conductors. Their standard even allowed a cable goose neck as the service head.

 

[hornetd]

The point being, access to the GEC connection is a lame reason POCO's use for not wanting it in the meter can. Of all the connections in a meter can the GEC connection is probably the less likely to need to be repaired at any given time.

There is no reason for not allowing it in the meter enclosure except for some POCO engineers ignorance. I have never had any of said engineers answer the other question I asked about why the other connections do not need to be accessible.

I think that the underlying reason is that they don't want anyone except their own employees to do anything inside the meter socket enclosure. The real motto of Public Utilities is "No billing, No service" Since the meter is how they get paid they don't want anyone outside the company messing with it.