Bonding Neutral and Grounds

[ddaut]

I see many times where there is a meter and disconnect on the outside of a home. Immediately adjacent on the inside of the home there is an indoor panel with a main disconnect and all the circuit breakers. Most of the time grounds and neutrals are not separated in the inside panel. So they are bonded outside in the disconnect and also bonded inside at the main panel; usually less than 6 feet apart. It’s my understanding that neutrals and grounds should be separated at the first disconnect and stay separated after that. How bad is this and is there an exception to make this code compliant?


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[ptonsparky]

Yes, supposed to be at the 1st.

How dangerous? Good question. I haven't seen any buildings burst into flames because of only that issue.

Normally not something I would lose sleep over.

 

[qcroanoke]

Correct. Bond neutral to ground in the first disconnect. After that they should be separated per code.
Dangerous? Depends on who you ask.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

If there is a length of SER cable between them, or PVC with wire, then real world, it’s not a problem. Code violation, but not an actual danger.

Any parallel current would be contained in the conduit or cable.

 

[augie47]

230.85 muddied the water a bit on that. IF the outside disconnect is an "Emergency Di connect" with a bonded neutral then the interior panel can have a N-G bond. If the outside disconnect is a "Service Disconnect-Emergency Disconnect" then the N-G must be separated on the interior panel.
Amazing how the electrons know the difference

 

[don_resqcapt19]

In our town there is always a parallel neutral path. We only permit RMC or IMC for service conductors and the neutral is factory bonded in the meter cans that are permitted by the local utility and again at the service equipment creating a path via the metal raceway.
Have never seen that be an issue.

 

[NoahsArc]

Around here, they're bonded at the meter and bonded at the transformer and a pipe goes between the two. The 3ft section between the meter and the panel is probably not the major issue unless that 1.5" RMC breaks apart somehow and the homeowner decides to somehow stand between it inside the rim joist cavity.

 

[qcroanoke]

Yeah. Not bonded at all is a bigger problem.

 

[Lioneye]

If there is a length of SER cable between them, or PVC with wire, then real world, it’s not a problem. Code violation, but not an actual danger.

Any parallel current would be contained in the conduit or cable.

Keep in mind, with parallel paths for the grounded conductor, not only does a portion of the phase imbalance flow Creeon the EGC, it also is present on the panel enclosures, deadfronts etc. It is a real world problem and should not be done. Good, safe electrical practices to avoid this are possible and practical, and should be followed. Teach your cubs the correct way, and why.

 

[jaggedben]

Keep in mind, with parallel paths for the grounded conductor, not only does a portion of the phase imbalance flow on the EGC, it also is present on the panel enclosures, deadfronts etc. It is a real world problem and should not be done. Good, safe electrical practices to avoid this are possible and practical, and should be followed. Teach your cubs the correct way, and why.

What's the actual real world problem?

 

[ActionDave]

Keep in mind, with parallel paths for the grounded conductor, not only does a portion of the phase imbalance floe on the EGC, it also is present on the panel enclosures, deadfronts etc. It is a real world problem and should not be done. Good, safe electrical practices to avoid this are possible and practical, and should be followed. Teach your cubs the correct way, and why.

In order to do a NEC approved service you have to have a parallel neutral path on all the panel enclosures and dead fronts. I have nicknamed it the unavoidable objectionable current.

 

[LarryFine]

Keep in mind, with parallel paths for the grounded conductor, not only does a portion of the phase imbalance floe on the EGC, it also is present on the panel enclosures, deadfronts etc. It is a real world problem and should not be done.

Keep in mind that the service neutral is re-established as the zero-volts reference point for the premises.

 

[JoeNorm]

I see versions of this all the time. Seems like it must be one of the most common violations. And apparently one of the most missed by inspectors.

 

[Lev6575]

230.85 muddied the water a bit on that. IF the outside disconnect is an "Emergency Di connect" with a bonded neutral then the interior panel can have a N-G bond. If the outside disconnect is a "Service Disconnect-Emergency Disconnect" then the N-G must be separated on the interior panel.
Amazing how the electrons know the difference

Good evening,

Have a question on some Generac ats I installed. I keep getting conflicting answers and interpretations. Licensed electrician in Wisconsin. On a native reservation. Intrepreted the Wisconsin sps 316 regarding existing services, ibc 34 & NEC 230.85.

Existing 100 amp overhead services. Single phase. 3 wire service entrance cable. Ground rods bonded in meter socket. Homes were built around 1980’s. Installed generac RXSW200A3 transfer switches outside home between meter socket and panel in basement. I left the bonding wire in the transfer switch connected. I did an identical install off the tribal land and was inspected by the local UDC inspector and passed. Another electrician looked at them for another job and stated grounds and neutrals needed to be separated after the transfer switches outside. With the ats being an “emergency disconnect”, it is allowed to leave the meter, ats and panel on basement bonded? Can you please reference the proper code?

Thank you for your time

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

In my opinion, if the ATS is labeled “Emergency Disconnect, Not Service Equipment”, it would be acceptable.

However, also in my opinion, I don’t think that’s the best way to install those. I would have used a 100A SE-Rated ATS, and bonded N-G in the ATS, and ran a 4 wire cable to the panel inside.

All the Generac residential SE-Rated ATS come with labeling that states “Emergency Disconnect, Service Disconnect”, so you would have to remove that label and relabel it, and then there would be the question of whether that is installing equipment other than in accordance with manufacturer directions.

 

[Lev6575]

230.85 muddied the water a bit on that. IF the outside disconnect is an "Emergency Di connect" with a bonded neutral then the interior panel can have a N-G bond. If the outside disconnect is a "Service Disconnect-Emergency Disconnect" then the N-G must be separated on the interior panel.
Amazing how the electrons know the difference

Good evening,

Have a question on some Generac ats I installed. I keep getting conflicting answers and interpretations. Licensed electrician in Wisconsin. On a native reservation. Intrepreted the Wisconsin sps 316 regarding existing services, ibc 34 & NEC 230.85.

Existing 100 amp overhead services. Single phase. 3 wire service entrance cable. Ground rods bonded in meter socket. Homes were built around 1980’s. Installed generac RXSW200A3 transfer switches outside home between meter socket and panel in basement. I left the bonding wire in the transfer switch connected. I did an identical install off the tribal land and was inspected by the local UDC inspector and passed. Another electrician looked at them for another job and stated grounds and neutrals needed to be separated after the transfer switches outside. With the ats being an “emergency disconnect”, it is allowed to leave the meter, ats and panel on basement bonded? Can you please reference the proper code?

Thank you for your time

 

[jaggedben]

I think what you did is okay (assuming two pole service rated transfer switches).

For what it's worth the emergency disconnect rule may go away in the future making it not okay again.

 

[chorty55]

I hope some day they absolutely cannot find anything else to change in the code book.

Having to drop a neutral for these genZ kids fancy light switches is already stupidly annoying. Who needs their light switch to have an IPv6 address? Who? WHO? $0.83 dumb switch for me, thanks.

And the bonded N/G chaos @ and before the service entrance with and without disconnects, or emergency disconnects, or service/emergency disconnects.. Jesus. The electrons don't care and the Fin wires are inside of conduit. If its that big of a deal, then drop 4 wires from the pole, don't drop 3, bond them later, then code them separate to keep them safe. Wtf?

After the main panel, I respect the unbonded design, but if its supposed to be for safety, don't bond them together anywhere, and pony up and drop 4 wires to my meter.

Is it anymore dangerous having 3 dangerous wires inside the conduit instead of 2? Conduit that basically no one can safely get into without tearing apart the panel enclosure and disconnecting the transformer?


The only bond I think should happen is up at the center tap. Just my opinion.

Rant over.

 

[Strathead]

Good evening,

Have a question on some Generac ats I installed. I keep getting conflicting answers and interpretations. Licensed electrician in Wisconsin. On a native reservation. Intrepreted the Wisconsin sps 316 regarding existing services, ibc 34 & NEC 230.85.

Existing 100 amp overhead services. Single phase. 3 wire service entrance cable. Ground rods bonded in meter socket. Homes were built around 1980’s. Installed generac RXSW200A3 transfer switches outside home between meter socket and panel in basement. I left the bonding wire in the transfer switch connected. I did an identical install off the tribal land and was inspected by the local UDC inspector and passed. Another electrician looked at them for another job and stated grounds and neutrals needed to be separated after the transfer switches outside. With the ats being an “emergency disconnect”, it is allowed to leave the meter, ats and panel on basement bonded? Can you please reference the proper code?

Thank you for your time

A clarity that I didn't see in the answers to the discussion above... according to 230.91 "The service overcurrent device shall be an integral part of the service disconnecting means or shall be located immediately adjacent thereto." So when we talk about the service disconnect, most of us are referring to the integral disconnect and overcurrent protection.

So, if your ATS has overcurrent protection then it can't be considered an emergency disconnect, in my opinion.

 

[infinity]

So, if your ATS has overcurrent protection then it can't be considered an emergency disconnect, in my opinion.

Are you saying that the EM disconnect (not service equipment) cannot have an OCPD like a circuit breaker?