Braided jacket nm wiring and Florida 4 point inspection

[spacecon]

A house inspector flagged a house as having "cloth wiring" on the Citizens Insurance 4 point form for Florida. The house has a combination of newer NM with ground wiring with plastic over-jacket and older NM wiring with color coded plastic insulated wires with ground and braided jacket overall. All of it has grounds. There is nowhere on the form to distinguish between cloth wiring and NM wiring that has thermoplastic PVC insulation with a braided over-jacket. So the inspector flags it as the house having cloth wiring, which can be interpreted as it having old cloth wiring over-jacket with brittle rubber insulation over the internal conductors or even older cloth wiring that has cloth and paper insulation over the copper conductors. I feel it shouldn't have to be replaced, but I am sure that if the insurance company sees "cloth wiring" they will demand it. Is this inspector overzealous, or am I wrong? To me it seems like the main purpose of the overall jacket is not to insulate the conductors, but to hold them together so they can be run together. They are inside the jacket and that outer jacket isn't what prevents them from shorting together, they have their own plastic insulation. The 4 point blank form can be seen here: https://www.citizensfla.com/documen...ction+PL/3d7e0270-2c1d-4a14-b2e6-3a796c675a7f
Thanks. Apparently this is an unclear, not definitively answered question in Florida where insurance companies run the show.

 

[LarryFine]

Welcome to the forum.

You're basically correct.

 

[infinity]

I'm familiar with Florida 4-point inspections and part of the problem is that the insurance people writing the inspection parameters (like cloth wiring) are very lacking in basic electrical knowledge. Then you have HI's who just check a box on the 4-point and the rest is just a mess. I don't think that the NEC has ever used the term cloth wiring to describe a type of wiring method. Old NM cable may have tinned copper with rubber insulation but is that what the 4-point means when it says "cloth wiring"?

I've asked several Florida HI's and they cannot answer the question either. If the cable has thermoplastic conductors IMO it is not what they think "cloth wiring" actually is and should not be checked off on the 4-point. Until they hire someone who is more knowledgeable at writing their inspection parameters you'll end up with these problems. What you can probably do is hire a competent electrician who can refute what's in the 4-point.

 

[spacecon]

I'm familiar with Florida 4-point inspections and part of the problem is that the insurance people writing the inspection parameters (like cloth wiring) are very lacking in basic electrical knowledge. Then you have HI's who just check a box on the 4-point and the rest is just a mess. I don't think that the NEC has ever used the term cloth wiring to describe a type of wiring method. Old NM cable may have tinned copper with rubber insulation but is that what the 4-point means when it says "cloth wiring"?

I've asked several Florida HI's and they cannot answer the question either. If the cable has thermoplastic conductors IMO it is not what they think "cloth wiring" actually is and should not be checked off on the 4-point. Until they hire someone who is more knowledgeable at writing their inspection parameters you'll end up with these problems. What you can probably do is hire a competent electrician who can refute what's in the 4-point.

Thanks for that. I agree. They put down "cloth wiring" on the form but don't define it. And then an insurance employee sees "cloth wiring" and immediately responds with what they have heard, without knowing what the heck it really is or what they are talking about. I just don't see it being any kind of fire or safety issue if it has plastic conductor insulation that is in good shape. An unnecessary waste of time and money IMO.

 

[infinity]

Thanks for that. I agree. They put down "cloth wiring" on the form but don't define it. And then an insurance employee sees "cloth wiring" and immediately responds with what they have heard, without knowing what the heck it really is or what they are talking about. I just don't see it being any kind of fire or safety issue if it has plastic conductor insulation that is in good shape. An unnecessary waste of time and money IMO.

It definitely a problem for the reasons you've mentioned.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would write on the form that all cloth wiring has equipment grounding conductor's.

 

[garbo]

I would write on the form that all cloth wiring has equipment grounding conductor's.

 

[roger]

As stated, hire an EC to inspect the wiring independently and write a letter. This doesn't mean the insurance co will give in, they can do what they want to do.

 

[garbo]

A little knowledge is dangerous. My house was built in 1964 with the old style cloth NM cable. I have replaced most of it anytime that I had a wall open. Recently I replaced a duplex receptacle and inspected the insulation with a bright flashlight. Still in great shape. I recently argued with a so called expert home inspector when my sister was selling her second home. He came in on a hot day and turned all the baseboard heaters & electric range on high for awhile. Panel was in direct line of sun. He demanded that the 20 year old panel & circuit breakers be replaced because they were warm. I asked him what type of FLIR camera did he use. None. Ask if he even used a cheap under $100 infrared gun to take readings. Nope he used his hand. He then said no electrical work was required. Can remember when our local electrical supply house started selling NM cable with the plastic jacket around 1966-67. Charged 50¢ more per 250' box then the cloth covered type. Was worth the extra money especially on hot days. No more tar covers hands. As long as 14 guage NM cable was on a 15 amp breaker like wise 12 guage on 20 amp breakers and not in extra hot unvented far south attics cloth type NM should still be in good shape.

 

[jmellc]

I think all the cloth Romex I've seen with grounds was if pretty good shape. It was newer than those without grounds. I think the conductor insulation was often TW. Some had reduced ground, some full sized. Haven't seen any in years. I would argue it if I could. Customer shouldn't have to replace that IMHO.

 

[garbo]

I think all the cloth Romex I've seen with grounds was if pretty good shape. It was newer than those without grounds. I think the conductor insulation was often TW. Some had reduced ground, some full sized. Haven't seen any in years. I would argue it if I could. Customer shouldn't have to replace that IMHO.

My parents house was built believe it was 1952 with 14/2 cloth NM cable with a #16 guage ground wire. Houses across the street were built a year later with 14/2 cloth NM cable without a ground. They came a long way in terms of termination ground wires. In my house they used metal wall cases with beveled corners. They came into the bottom with one 14/2 NM cable and the second cable thru the top. They then cut the flimsy #16 guage ground wire no more then a inch long and wrapped it around the cable clamp screw. It was a pain crimping a butt connector on both short wires then to a wire nut and banged on an approved group clip on side of wall cases. Often wondered how effective the original ground wrap arounds after passing thru 5 boxes and 10 screws would be. Was thinking about connecting a toaster between one of these grounds & the hot wire and measure the voltage drop both with the flimsy wrap around grounds and then to the grounded conductor. Was so glad when they started having a tapped hole for ground screws.( guess at least 40 years ).

 

[readydave8]

I disagreed with insurance company request when I bought a house in Florida.

It didn't matter if what they wanted changed was unnecessary, after the recent hurricanes, they didn't care if I bought insurance from them or not.

We did not find another company that wanted to sell us insurance, and didn't want to be in pool, so I made the changes. Including replacing the wiring

 

[jmellc]

My parents house was built believe it was 1952 with 14/2 cloth NM cable with a #16 guage ground wire. Houses across the street were built a year later with 14/2 cloth NM cable without a ground. They came a long way in terms of termination ground wires. In my house they used metal wall cases with beveled corners. They came into the bottom with one 14/2 NM cable and the second cable thru the top. They then cut the flimsy #16 guage ground wire no more then a inch long and wrapped it around the cable clamp screw. It was a pain crimping a butt connector on both short wires then to a wire nut and banged on an approved group clip on side of wall cases. Often wondered how effective the original ground wrap arounds after passing thru 5 boxes and 10 screws would be. Was thinking about connecting a toaster between one of these grounds & the hot wire and measure the voltage drop both with the flimsy wrap around grounds and then to the grounded conductor. Was so glad when they started having a tapped hole for ground screws.( guess at least 40 years ).

I was taught the same, to ground to the box with the clamp screw for switches. In those days, the 70's, I never saw switches with ground terminals. A lot of junction boxes were grounded by bringing a ground out from the box and doubling back to the cover screw. Some by grounding to the mounting screws, though many boxes were nailed up then with short roofing nails. If a receptacle, ground went to it and no pigtail to box that I ever saw. Our house was built about 1954 and none of the romex had grounds. 1st receptacles I ever saw with grounds were about 1963?

 

[Eddie702]

If a metal box had no hole for grounding available I would drill and tap it 10/32 for a green ground screw. If I was in a hurry it would get an illegal tek screw which is just as good in a metal box that is thick enough to hod a tek screw as tight as a machine screw IMHO

 

[LarryFine]

 

[jmellc]

View attachment 2573510

I tried to always keep a few of these handy but they didn't always work well. Some would lose tension. But good to have when no other option.

 

[jmellc]

If a metal box had no hole for grounding available I would drill and tap it 10/32 for a green ground screw. If I was in a hurry it would get an illegal tek screw which is just as good in a metal box that is thick enough to hod a tek screw as tight as a machine screw IMHO

A switch box w romex or cable clamps usually has clamp screws that are 10-32. I have used that if one clamp wasn't needed.

 

[brycenesbitt]

Insurance companies are box checkers, not electricians. Can you get the original home inspector out to revise the Four Point?

 

[garbo]

I tried to always keep a few of these handy but they didn't always work well. Some would lose tension. But good to have when no other option.

Worse case when you had to replace a device where Johnnie Home owner cut the opening maybe a 1/2" too long and used Madison bars on old wall case that did not have a tapped hole for ground screw. Had to clamp on vice grips and have a personal hold them while banging on one if these groups clips.

 

[jmellc]

Worse case when you had to replace a device where Johnnie Home owner cut the opening maybe a 1/2" too long and used Madison bars on old wall case that did not have a tapped hole for ground screw. Had to clamp on vice grips and have a personal hold them while banging on one if these groups clips.

Seen that & seen homeowner nail a box to a plaster wall with small nails that only crumble the plaster, nailed through the ears. That can work on a wooden wall, sometimes.