IS THERE A PROBLEM OR VIOLATION WITH OVERSIZING BRANCH CIRCUIT HOME RUNS FOR VOLTAGE DROP ISSUES ON HOME RUNS AND WIRING THE REMAINDER OF THE CIRCIUT IN THE STANDARD SIZE WIRE. EXAMPLE: 15 AMP BRANCH CIRCIUT IS FEED WITH A #12AWG FUSED AT 15 AMP AND THE REMAINDE OF THE CIRCUIT WIRED WITH #14 AWG
BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
- Thread starter mspa
- Start date
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russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
No, you can switch to 14 if you want.
Please don't use all capitals, it's hard to read.
[ April 22, 2004, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: russ ]
No, you can switch to 14 if you want.
Please don't use all capitals, it's hard to read.
[ April 22, 2004, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: russ ]
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
No problem at all and in some cases a good design!
It does cause for some confusion for troubleshooters, but overall is better than having excessive voltage drop on the circuit.
No problem at all and in some cases a good design!
It does cause for some confusion for troubleshooters, but overall is better than having excessive voltage drop on the circuit. 
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
No problem at all from the NEC.
Some feel this is dangerous as someone might move the 12 AWG onto a 15 amp breaker, you could put a tag on the wire that says 14 AWG down line.
IMO the dangerous part is having unqualified people moving wires in panels.
No problem at all from the NEC.
Some feel this is dangerous as someone might move the 12 AWG onto a 15 amp breaker, you could put a tag on the wire that says 14 AWG down line.
IMO the dangerous part is having unqualified people moving wires in panels.
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
i have an electrical inspector that wants me to rewire an entire house because i did this. i asked him to show me in the code where it is not allowed and his responce was show him where it says it is . he proclaims you can not mix conductor sizes
i have an electrical inspector that wants me to rewire an entire house because i did this. i asked him to show me in the code where it is not allowed and his responce was show him where it says it is . he proclaims you can not mix conductor sizes
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
This inspector is mistaken, in my state I could go over his head, I do not know your options.
Bob
This is a very standard thing to do on larger jobs, I have been on jobs running 4 AWG for 20 amp 120 volt outlets and I can assure your we spliced on smaller conductors to connect to the outlet.
This inspector is mistaken, in my state I could go over his head, I do not know your options.
Bob
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
I have mixed feelings about changing wire size on the same circuit.
To my thinking from a design consideration is to install a service extension panel closer to the load.
Notice "service extension panel" phrase. My words only.
I have mixed feelings about changing wire size on the same circuit.
To my thinking from a design consideration is to install a service extension panel closer to the load.
Notice "service extension panel" phrase.
My words only.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
Bob
I simply meant anyone who did not have the sense to check the circuit before changing the ampacity of the overcurrent protection.
Bob
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
Refer to article 100
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
Caj, who would you allow (forget who might) to work in this panel, someone who had a clue, or someone who didn't?
We can't beat idiots even with our best efforts.
Qualified is qualified, this is the reason tests are given covering the whole code book, not just chapters 1 through 4.
As Bryan touches on, many jobs are engineered this way.
Roger
[ April 22, 2004, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Caj, who would you allow (forget who might) to work in this panel, someone who had a clue, or someone who didn't?
We can't beat idiots even with our best efforts.
Qualified is qualified, this is the reason tests are given covering the whole code book, not just chapters 1 through 4.
As Bryan touches on, many jobs are engineered this way.
Roger
[ April 22, 2004, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
Finally, there is the general notion that if the NEC does not explicitly say that you can?t do something, then you can do that something, so long as that something is not inherently unsafe. However, that general notion does not appear in the text of the NEC itself. So it may be hard to use it in a disagreement with the AHJ.
Try showing him this:
I believe that you have achieved that requirement, by protecting both the #12 and the #14 in accordance with their ampacities. You might also throw this in:
This says you can?t exceed 20 amps for a #12. You haven?t. There is also this:
You have chosen to use a conductor (#12) of an ampere rating higher than that of the circuit (15 amps). That is allowed.
Finally, there is the general notion that if the NEC does not explicitly say that you can?t do something, then you can do that something, so long as that something is not inherently unsafe. However, that general notion does not appear in the text of the NEC itself. So it may be hard to use it in a disagreement with the AHJ.
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
Gentlemen,
Table 210.24 summarizes Branch Circuit Requirements and specifically states that you can use #14's to tap from #12's. So whether you are tapping as your load reduces or to accommodate voltage drop and size the OCPD @ 15amps, it is acceptable. Hope this helps.
Gentlemen,
Table 210.24 summarizes Branch Circuit Requirements and specifically states that you can use #14's to tap from #12's. So whether you are tapping as your load reduces or to accommodate voltage drop and size the OCPD @ 15amps, it is acceptable. Hope this helps.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
See 240.5 and Article 402 Fixture Wires.
You can not tap a 20 amp branch circuit with 14 AWG NM to feed a fixture.
To be clear that part of Table 210.24 only applies to Fixture wires and cords.
See 240.5 and Article 402 Fixture Wires.
You can not tap a 20 amp branch circuit with 14 AWG NM to feed a fixture.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
The inspector is wrong, and you do not have to show him anything.
In the states that I work, it goes like this:
By law he must quote to you in writing the CODE Section that he determines that you are violating.
The inspector is not the AHJ. The AHJ is the State or local Fire Marshal who has adopted the NEC. The inspector is, well, an inspector, who is hired to insure CODE compliance.
If the inspector doesn't want to do his job, go to the chief elctrical inspector, and then to the State electrical board.
This is how it is where I work, and could be different for you.
The inspector is wrong, and you do not have to show him anything.
In the states that I work, it goes like this:
By law he must quote to you in writing the CODE Section that he determines that you are violating.
The inspector is not the AHJ. The AHJ is the State or local Fire Marshal who has adopted the NEC. The inspector is, well, an inspector, who is hired to insure CODE compliance.
If the inspector doesn't want to do his job, go to the chief elctrical inspector, and then to the State electrical board.
This is how it is where I work, and could be different for you.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
caj1962
No problem asking, although sometimes when we ask a question inside a question it may get lost.
Art 100 Definition of Qualified Person:
One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training on the hazards involved.
However, in Article 80 we find information on inspector qualifications (Art 80 has to be adopted by ordinance, but its usefull to look at)
B) Experience. Electrical inspector applicants shall demonstrate the following:
(1) Have a demonstrated knowledge of the standard materials and methods used in the installation of electric equipment
(2) Be well versed in the approved methods of construction for safety to persons and property
(3) Be well versed in the statutes of ________ relating to electrical work and the National Electrical Code, as approved by the American National Standards Institute
(4) Have had at least ____ years? experience as an Electrical Inspector or ____ years in the installation of electrical equipment. In lieu of such experience, the applicant shall be a graduate in electrical engineering or of a similar curriculum of a college or university considered by the Board as having suitable requirements for graduation and shall have had two years? practical electrical experience.
caj1962
No problem asking, although sometimes when we ask a question inside a question it may get lost.
Art 100 Definition of Qualified Person:
One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training on the hazards involved.
However, in Article 80 we find information on inspector qualifications (Art 80 has to be adopted by ordinance, but its usefull to look at)
B) Experience. Electrical inspector applicants shall demonstrate the following:
(1) Have a demonstrated knowledge of the standard materials and methods used in the installation of electric equipment
(2) Be well versed in the approved methods of construction for safety to persons and property
(3) Be well versed in the statutes of ________ relating to electrical work and the National Electrical Code, as approved by the American National Standards Institute
(4) Have had at least ____ years? experience as an Electrical Inspector or ____ years in the installation of electrical equipment. In lieu of such experience, the applicant shall be a graduate in electrical engineering or of a similar curriculum of a college or university considered by the Board as having suitable requirements for graduation and shall have had two years? practical electrical experience.
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
Originally posted by iwire:
"To be clear that part of Table 210.24 only applies to Fixture wires and cords.
See 240.5 and Article 402 Fixture Wires.
You can not tap a 20 amp branch circuit with 14 AWG NM to feed a fixture."
iwire,
I do believe that Table 210.24 applies to branch circuits for lamp holders & receptacles.
Article 210.24
Branch-Circuit Requirements-Summary. The requirements for circuits that have two or more outlets or receptacles, other than the receptacle circuits of 210.11(C)(1) & (2), are summarized in Table 210.24. This table provides only a summary of minimum requirements. See 210.19, 210.20 & 210.21 for the specific requirements applying to branch circuits.
Respectfully submitted
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
I do not agree, but will keep an open mind while others get in on this.
[ April 24, 2004, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
I do not agree, but will keep an open mind while others get in on this.
[ April 24, 2004, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
I strongly agree with Bob. Table 210.24 is a very poorly designed table and is very misleading, in my opinion. The bottom line is 210.19(A)(2).
I strongly agree with Bob. Table 210.24 is a very poorly designed table and is very misleading, in my opinion. The bottom line is 210.19(A)(2).
chicar
Senior Member
- Location
- Lancaster,Pa
Re: BRANCH CIRCIUT SIZING TO AVOID VOLTAGE DROP
I would have to agree with the Inspector. I have seen this in commercial, but not in residential. The only reason for this application is voltage drop in big buildings. To see this in houses would scare me. If I did a panel change I would not expect this and would question,"why"?
I would have to agree with the Inspector. I have seen this in commercial, but not in residential. The only reason for this application is voltage drop in big buildings. To see this in houses would scare me. If I did a panel change I would not expect this and would question,"why"?
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