branch circuit breaker operating time

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RHaggie

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Location
Dallas TX
Does anyone know where information or a resource for branch circuit breakers- 20, 30A- from the different but common manufactures can be found? Specifically a range of times for say, Westinghouse, SquareD, Siemens, etc, where they can expect to open in the event of an arc (I know, there is nothing that says the current will be high enough to operate it in an arc fault) or short circuit. Not too worried about overload times right now.

My focus is electrical safety for electrical workers and getting them to not trust a circuit breaker to open before damage is done but using the PPE to lessen the effects of an arc or shock hazard.
Thanks
 

jtester

Senior Member
Location
Las Cruces N.M.
RHaggie said:
Does anyone know where information or a resource for branch circuit breakers- 20, 30A- from the different but common manufactures can be found? Specifically a range of times for say, Westinghouse, SquareD, Siemens, etc, where they can expect to open in the event of an arc (I know, there is nothing that says the current will be high enough to operate it in an arc fault) or short circuit. Not too worried about overload times right now.

My focus is electrical safety for electrical workers and getting them to not trust a circuit breaker to open before damage is done but using the PPE to lessen the effects of an arc or shock hazard.
Thanks

Most manufacturers offer time-current curves that give operating times for the entire range of currents. Try any one.

Jim T
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
My focus is electrical safety for electrical workers and getting them to not trust a circuit breaker to open before damage is done but using the PPE to lessen the effects of an arc or shock hazard.
Remember that the case where an electician is permitted to work on or near energized equipment is rare. The use of the proper PPE does not change this.
Don
 

RHaggie

Member
Location
Dallas TX
don_resqcapt19 said:
Remember that the case where an electician is permitted to work on or near energized equipment is rare. The use of the proper PPE does not change this.
Don
Working on or near energized equipment is unavoidable. Most Maitenance electricians work at the branch circuit level that must be energized to troubleshoot. This is permitted- with prior training and proper PPE you mentioned- in 70E. Getting them to de-energize as often as possible is an uphill battle.

I have run across too many good, experienced electricians that do not understand that a circuit breakers can take thier sweet time opening up, especially in an arc fault. This, I hope, will drive home the need for PPE in these guys with a quarter century experience in the trade. Seeing everything takes more time than we all have put together...

What I am trying to define is the amount of time a flash hazard will exist before the branch circuit OCPD opens. This is to give the electricians the knowledge of the performance of a common, mass produced (and increasingly imported) branch circuit breaker. I was hoping some material was out there that I could put into an electrical safety presentation for all maintenance electrical workers, not just the electricians, at a large hospital.

A Qualified Person must be trained on the hazards they are exposed to, even if that is limited to checking for voltage after the disconnect is opened.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
ron said:
For example. you can see if the arc fault current is 10 times the handle value, it will take 2.5 seconds to clear the fault.
And... you can have a heck of a lot of energy expelled in much less than 2.5 seconds. Add this video to your presentation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iClXrd50Z8
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Most Maitenance electricians work at the branch circuit level that must be energized to troubleshoot. This is permitted- with prior training and proper PPE you mentioned- in 70E.
Yes, that is permitted, but the repair work after you have found the problem is not.
Unless you know the current draw of the fault or arc, there is no way to know the trip time. As Jim said the time trip curves are published online by the breaker manufactures, and you could show the trip times based on various current levels, but that may or may not reflect the trip time under fault conditions.
I have run across too many good, experienced electricians that do not understand that a circuit breakers can take thier sweet time opening up, especially in an arc fault.
The same happens with fuses too.
Don
 

coulter

Senior Member
RH -
I don't have either 70E or the IEEE spec here, so I am paraphrasing from memory.

RHaggie said:
...information or a resource for branch circuit breakers- 20, 30A- ...
Sounds like you are talking about 208/120, or 240/120. If so, the arc flash calc models in both 70E and the IEEE 1584(?) either don't apply, or give unrealistic results for systems:
1. fed with xfmrs less than 112kVA (might be 125KVA)
2. 240V and below (I could be wrong on the exact voltage) They can't get an arc to sustain reliabiliy.
3. single phase
4. Also look at IEEE 1584, Annex B, for the two second rule. My translation is that if one is still conscious and moving, two seconds into the incident, your reflexes will make you leave the area - so exposure times longer than two seconds don't matter too much. That of course doesn't count if you are wedged into a hole and can't get away.

RHaggie said:
...My focus is electrical safety for electrical workers and ... using the PPE to lessen the effects of an arc or shock hazard.
I absolutely agree with your focus, but there must be a better way to convince your crews than using what appears to be unrealistic claims of energy caused by long trip times.

carl
 
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jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
coulter said:
RH -
Sounds like you are talking about 208/120, or 240/120. If so, the arc flash calc models in both 70E and the IEEE 1584(?) either don't apply, or give unrealistic results for systems:
1. fed with xfmrs less than 112kVA (might be 125KVA)
2. 240V and below (I could be wrong on the exact voltage) They can't get an arc to sustain reliabiliy.
3. single phase
4. Also look at IEEE 1584, Annex B, for the two second rule. My translation is that if one is still conscious and moving, two seconds into the incident, your reflexes will make you leave the area - so exposure times longer than two seconds don't matter too much. That of course doesn't count if you are wedged into a hole and can't get away.
carl

Good points Carl, but I can't help throwing in my two cents.

1. IEEE1584 says it is okay to ignore <125kVA transformers with 208Y/120 secondaries. - NFPA70E never mentions transformers.

2. IEEE1584 says you can ignore some 208V and lower - NFPA70E says there is special treatment for 240V with maximum 10kA SCA.

3. IEEE1584 says they have no formula for calculating AFIE on single phase - NFPA70E only addresses voltages and currents.

4. When rationlizing 2 sec don't forget common situations like being in a lift truck.
 

coulter

Senior Member
Jim -
Thanks for pinning down my uncertainty. It's a problem when I can't give (or check) my references.

Also thanks for clarifying item 4. We have one that is high fault current, long trip times, and limited space. I haven't worked that one, however my understanding is, to get the level down to where a Haz Cat 4 suit is acceptable they reset the relays to shorten the time - not comfortable.

Here is example of the other end of the spectrum. We have a 240/120 panel fed from a 37.5kVA, 5%Z xfmr. The arc flash label says the incident energy is 34cal/cm^2. That takes a Haz Cat 4 suit to do the dead-bus verification. The electricians are well aware that requiring a full moon suit to verify dead a panel, about like the one in a house, is unrealistic.

Why so high? SSC is low. Trip time is in the multiple seconds. First I suggested the energy calc was way high, and recommended we use the 70E defaults (a 1 or 0 - don't recall). The answer was (paraphrased), 'We have an engineering calc, we're using it.' Okay. Next I sugested to the engineering firm that they invoke the two second rule. The response, 'We err on the side of caution.' The electrician's response is they consider wearing a Cat 4 suit, when not required, to increase risk - makes one clumsy. However, now that a safety bullet has been fired, meaningful discussion is effectively ended.

Back to RH -
The outfit I work for mandates (and buys) FR coveralls or FR pants and shirt, hardhat, safety glasses (prescriprion if needed), safety shoes for all work. The company attitude is don't show up for work without them. Add leather gloves and this is about a level one. Add an arc rated face shield and it is level 2. Oh, and don't forget your earplugs. Add 600V rubbers and leather protectors, and your good for reaching in to most 480V MCC. The company bought the gear, has it immediately available, mandated and scheduled the training.

Another thing I think they did right is to not assume that holding a COF means one is qualified to do live maintenance work - training required, COF or not.

Could be your company will have to buy the gear, mandate wearing it, and send the supervisory staff - not the safety guy - out to check. If the supervisory staff doesn't want to do it, I'd say you're beat.

Note on unrealistic panel: I've still got a couple of politicaly correct, corporate avenues left to work. Maybe I can get it to a reasonable level.

carl
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Glendale, WI
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
coulter said:
I absolutely agree with your focus, but there must be a better way to convince your crews than using what appears to be unrealistic claims of energy caused by long trip times.

Show and tell? Bring blown up gear and melted tools to the presentation, perhaps?
 

coulter

Senior Member
tallgirl said:
Show and tell? Bring blown up gear and melted tools to the presentation, perhaps?
Well, one could. However, if the tools were anything worse than No9s turned into wire strippers or a blown off corner on a screw driver, most will know they likely did not come from a low available SSC, long trip time arc flash incident. They will also know that melted down gear likely did not come from this type of incident either. Then one's credibility is in the toilet. And who will listen after that?

note on the No9s and the screwdriver: Personally I've never done either, I've only heard rumors of it happening to others. :)

carl
 

kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
Occupation
Engineer, Registered
On a 37.5 KVA transformer, with a 5% impedance and 240V secondary, the worst case fault current is going to be just over 3000A. With cable it will be reduced, so on an arcing fault it is unlikely that you would ever see the full 3000A. Maybe something like 38%.

As far as breaker tripping, the FLA of xfmr is 156A, so the breaker would probably be a 200A. Assuming non-adjustable trip, for a anything over 1500A, the breaker should trip within 7 cycles, or around 0.12 secs. for the 38% of the 3000A, your looking at about 2 secs.

I think part of the issue that is possibly being overlooked, is that at lower voltages, and certainly with smaller transformers, the energy behind the fault, available to sustain an arc is extremely limited, and therefore the amount of energy available to cause a non-recoverable injury is unlikely. Hence the need for only Level 1 PPE.

Case in point:
Many years ago, I had the unfortunate experience of grounding a single phase of a three phase 208 volt lighting panel in a grocery store, with my 3/8" wide, 12" long Heavy-Duty Round-Shank Klein screwdriver. I was changing out a bolt on breaker, the srewdriver slipped, and Wham!! Other then feeling quite shaken (no bodily fluids expelled)and stupid, some ringing in my ears, and looking like a racoon from my safety glasses, (my face was coal black from the flash), the leather gloves and insulated handle on the srewdriver seemed to work. I still have the srewdriver (minus a rather large chunk of steel on the shaft that became flash welding material) to this day, as a reminder to think safety first. Needless to say, it was a short day of work, and much, much beer was consumed (prior to lunch)

This is certainly not scientific proof, but IMHO, I would find it hard to recommend, or enforce, anything over PPE level 1 for residential panelboards, or small 208Y/120V lighting and power panelboards.
 

haskindm

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
A typical circuit breaker will need to see a 300-400% overcurrent to trip relatively quickly. So for a 20-amp circuit breaker we are looking at a 60 to 80 amp load before the circuit breaker will trip reliably and "quickly". Since a 10 MILLIAMP shock may prove fatal we are looking at 6000 to 8000 times the energy it would take to kill a person to open a breaker. Breakers give workers NO protection against electrocution. You are in almost as much danger working on an unfused circuit as with a properly sized circuit breaker or fuse. Overcurrent devices protect conductors and equipment, NOT PEOPLE.
 

RHaggie

Member
Location
Dallas TX
Thanks for the comments.
I am looking at all normal operating voltages- 120/208, 277/480- for the flash training. A typical 13.2kV/480V unit substation at this facilty has a SCA rating of 38,435A. Several of the padmounted 300-750kVA transformers are 120/208- not very high voltage but an arc hazard just the same considering the let through current. I don't want to get too technical for fear of the guys losing interest. Personally, I like this sort of discourse. But an electrician that has not seen a wicked arc flash and how fast damage is done by them just does not get it. I am trying to get them to see the light without the smoke. A lot of the older ones think 120 is not a big deal and they have the eyebrows to prove it. Having gone through arc flash training, I don't do the things I used to do anymore.

We have been working slowly towards arc safety for the last few months for our electricians and have decided to train the A/C mechanics and Maintenance personnel changing ballasts on the hazards they will expect to run across doing thier jobs despite of the expense. A full blown- no pun intended- electrical hazard analysis is scheduled to begin in the second week in '07 that will quantify the hazards all the way to the brach circuit panels. At least we can demonstrate to OSHA that we are not ignorant, just a little slow in getting it done.

Every electrical worker is required to be HRC 1 and has available protection for the higher hazard catagories that the workers face. We have a couple of 65 cal/cm^2 suits on hand for switching and racking chores and have made it mandatory for everyone to wear leather gloves when opening covers that might have energized parts hidden. Hopefully all PPE will be here in the next week and I must have the training ready when I dole out the with the rest of the equipment- V rated tools, arc shields, 00 gloves protectors and 10 cal jackets.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I have half a pair of needle nose pliers that melted in a Zinsco panel trying to pry one of those thin @#$%^&^%'s out one time. I've kept them as a reminder for almost 30 years.

Also have a screwdriver missing the tip. Went to hook up a ground in a full panel and there happened to be a nick in the wire feeding the oven, of course the biggest breaker in the panel. Hit that nick and touched that screw driver to the ground bar and poof. Don't think I wasn't confused for about 10 minutes until I finally disconnected the wire and found the nick on the back side. The screwdriver sits next to my needle nose.

There are old electricians and there are bold electricians, but there are no old bold electricians.
 
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