Branch circuits entering service panel

[FRANK ELECTRIC]

Is it acceptable to use a 2 inch romex connector to route multiple branch wires (12's and 14's) into a new panel rather then using multiple 1/2 and 3/4 inch regular or plastic hit lock connectors. The two inch romex connector will be secured the same as any 1/2 or 3/4 inch connector would be. In other words, is there any code that specifies how many romex cables can enter through one connector?

 

[infinity]

The answer is no it is not permitted. Here's a similar thread:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=128541

Welcome to the forum.

 

[FRANK ELECTRIC]

Thank You infinity

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I have seen this done many times around here but as Trevor stated it is not legal. IMO, there isn't a problem with it in terms of safety, etc but unless the manufacturer allows it then it isn't compliant.

I am not sure why it is not allowed perhaps because some of the wires can easily be pulled. Once the wires are connected in the panel it would be unlikely that the wire would be able to be pulled out of the connector.

 

[FRANK ELECTRIC]

So if I am understanding You, You are saying that "if the connector being used does not specifically specify that it is for this purpose, then that is the reason for it not being "legal" or code compliant?" Would this be a UL listing or a manufactures description of the connector? I am not arguing Your reply, I just want to completely understand how an inspector would justify this as a violation.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So if I am understanding You, You are saying that "if the connector being used does not specifically specify that it is for this purpose, then that is the reason for it not being "legal" or code compliant?" Would this be a UL listing or a manufactures description of the connector? I am not arguing Your reply, I just want to completely understand how an inspector would justify this as a violation.

The manufacturer gets a listing from a third party, such as UL, based on how the product is intended to be used. Most regular NM connectors will accommodate 2 nm wires. Even the flat plastic push in ones may allow more than one. If the manufacturers instructions say one nm cable and gives the size then that is what we are limited to.

 

[telectric]

what about a 2" conduit?

what about a 2" conduit?

Is it acceptable to use a 2 inch romex connector to route multiple branch wires (12's and 14's) into a new panel rather then using multiple 1/2 and 3/4 inch regular or plastic hit lock connectors. The two inch romex connector will be secured the same as any 1/2 or 3/4 inch connector would be. In other words, is there any code that specifies how many romex cables can enter through one connector?

New to the forum,
Just a thought, instead of using a 2" cable clamp/connector, why not use a 2" stick of conduit, either pvc or emt? I have done this many times, I traditionally use PVC so I do not have to use a bushing, where the wires enter the pvc from the top, they are stapled to either a brace in the wall, maybe a rafter. I have not done this where the panel would be covered, more so in basements, and commercial garages.
And yes, this has passed many inspections over the years.
Again, just an idea.

here is an example of a panel I installed, it replaced a few old fuse boxes and about 4 conduits.

 

[infinity]

New to the forum,
Just a thought, instead of using a 2" cable clamp/connector, why not use a 2" stick of conduit, either pvc or emt? I have done this many times, I traditionally use PVC so I do not have to use a bushing, where the wires enter the pvc from the top, they are stapled to either a brace in the wall, maybe a rafter. I have not done this where the panel would be covered, more so in basements, and commercial garages.
And yes, this has passed many inspections over the years.
Again, just an idea.

here is an example of a panel I installed, it replaced a few old fuse boxes and about 4 conduits.

Here are the requirements for the type of installation that you've described. IMO the installation in your photo/description does not actually comply with all of the requirements.

312.5(C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.
Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 450 mm (18 in.) and not more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in length, provided all of the following conditions are met:
(a) Each cable is fastened within 300 mm (12 in.), measured along the sheath, of the outer end of the raceway.
(b) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.
(c) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain accessible after installation.
(d) The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end using approved means so as to prevent access to the enclosure through the raceway.
(e) The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not less than 6 mm (? in.).
(f) The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at other points in accordance with the applicable article.
(g) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the allowable cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code and all applicable notes thereto.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

New to the forum,
I have done this many times, I traditionally use PVC so I do not have to use a bushing,

I agree with Trevor this is not legal but as stated in poat #4, NC allows this unofficially for some reason. PVC does need a bushing or a coupling on the end also. Feel the edges of PVC esp where it has been cut. Whenever I sleeve a piece of nm down a wall in a basement I use a 1/2" or 3/4" PVC with a coupling on the end to give it a smooth finish.

 

[wireguy8169]

Does this mean that even if you use a section of conduit less than 24" you would need to derate on the fill of that raceway? In PA this is done quite a bit I typically ran my conductors two per nm connector, but I have never seen this fail an inspection when on a job with a guy running it does it this way!


(g) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the allowable cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code and all applicable notes thereto.

 

[infinity]

Does this mean that even if you use a section of conduit less than 24" you would need to derate on the fill of that raceway? In PA this is done quite a bit I typically ran my conductors two per nm connector, but I have never seen this fail an inspection when on a job with a guy running it does it this way!


(g) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the allowable cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code and all applicable notes thereto.

For 24" or less derating does not apply. You still can only fill the conduit up to the limits listed in Chapter 9.

 

[stevenje]

Here are the requirements for the type of installation that you've described. IMO the installation in your photo/description does not actually comply with all of the requirements.

Small typo on the code section. It should be 312.5(C). I wonder why it would have to have a minimum raceway length of 18 inches? Any thoughts on this?

 

[infinity]

Small typo on the code section. It should be 312.5(C). I wonder why it would have to have a minimum raceway length of 18 inches? Any thoughts on this?

Thanks Steve , I have fixed it.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Small typo on the code section. It should be 312.5(C). I wonder why it would have to have a minimum raceway length of 18 inches? Any thoughts on this?

I believe it is to prevent sparks or fire from escaping the panel.

 

[telectric]

Here are the requirements for the type of installation that you've described. IMO the installation in your photo/description does not actually comply with all of the requirements.

Is this because the photo looks as thought the conduit is less than 18"? Just curious. That is the only thing that it may violate, and this conduit was close to 2 foot.

I agree with Trevor this is not legal but as stated in poat #4, NC allows this unofficially for some reason. PVC does need a bushing or a coupling on the end also. Feel the edges of PVC esp where it has been cut. Whenever I sleeve a piece of nm down a wall in a basement I use a 1/2" or 3/4" PVC with a coupling on the end to give it a smooth finish.

I tradionally use a PVC coupling on the cut end, but not at the box adapter, I do however use a protective busing on the bo adapters of emt.

 

[fireryan]

We have always done the sleeves in 2'' pvc and make sure they are less than 24''. If this is not code complaint what else is everyone doing to bring romex into a panel.

 

[infinity]

Is this because the photo looks as thought the conduit is less than 18"? Just curious. That is the only thing that it may violate, and this conduit was close to 2 foot.



I tradionally use a PVC coupling on the cut end, but not at the box adapter, I do however use a protective busing on the bo adapters of emt.

I was thinking the less than 18" and the use of PVC without a fitting on the end that you mentioned in your post. Barring those issues it should be code compliant.

 

[SteveSivell]

Code

Code

So if I am understanding You, You are saying that "if the connector being used does not specifically specify that it is for this purpose, then that is the reason for it not being "legal" or code compliant?" Would this be a UL listing or a manufactures description of the connector? I am not arguing Your reply, I just want to completely understand how an inspector would justify this as a violation.

This would a code violation
This question refers to Artilcle, 110.3 b Instalallation and Use, as well as article 300 wiring method (300.4.300.13,300.15,310.15,334.30 and 334.80
in a nut shell there are no 2 inch conector listed for multi cable use such as you refer to (please see the" U.L. white book" and manufactures listing).If the conector is not listed for the specific use then it would be a code violation and if the conductors are grouped or bundle for more than 24 inches(such as in a conduit or stapled together) they must be derated according to 334.80 for NM type ("Romex"),and 310.15
Here is an example
The basic formula for Conductor Ampacity would be as follows:
(Table Value@T310.16) ?(Correction@bottom of t310.16 )?(Adjustment Factor@31.15 (b)(2)(a))
Must read 110.14c
Example:
there are (7) #8 AWG THWN single copper conductors are to be installed in a 1 1/2" aluminum conduit. All conductors are current carrying conductors. What is the allowable ampacity of each conductor? Assume the ambient temperature is 95 degrees F. Assume 60 degree C terminations.

Step 1: Go to Table 310.16 Look at the Table value for a #8 THWN conductor.
Table Value equals 55 amps for a #8 THWN conductor.
Step 2: Go to the bottom of Table 310.16 for your Ambient Temperature Corrections.
Corrections Table Value for 95 degrees F is 0.96 (multiplier)
Step 3: Go to Table 310.15(b) (2) (a)
For 7 current carrying conductors the Adjustment factor is 70%
Step 4: Multiply Step 1 and Step 2
55amps x 0.96 = 52.8 amps
Step 5: Multiply the sum of Step 1 and 2 by Step 3
Multiple 52.8 amps x 70% = 52.8 x 0.70 = 36.96 amps
Therefore, the maximum ampacity of these #8 THWN conductors would be 36.96 amps.
55 x 0.96 x 0.70 = 36.96 amps

please see example in the NFPA 70, 2008 N.E.C Hand book for an example

 

[brennantr]

why the code says what it says...

why the code says what it says...

It has been done for quite some time. The main reason why its said in the code book is the deal that the puiblisher/authors have with the makers of the product. Why would you use a 2" connector for 5 wires when you can mandate single use connectors for more profit.. Its business. There is no safety issue regarding multiple romex wires in a service entrance as long as there is no cuts/breaks in the cable. The NEC publishes every 3 years with hundreds of changes. Whos paying for it? Cutller Hammer, Square D, General electric, etc...... They make the rules!

But hey, they keep us workin!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If this is not code complaint what else is everyone doing to bring romex into a panel.

I used to use the PVC method but I have not done that in 20 years. I run the wires into romex connectors- 2 per connector. I bring some wires around into the bottom of the panel if there is no room on the top.