Breaker, Breaker 19 -- Federal Specific

[buildingellicott]

"Home Inspectors" (increasingtly being used before contract closings on house sales, not to be confused with Code Enforcement Inspectors and Electrical Inspectors such as the NYBFU) are tending to automatically take sensationalized internet comments and then reporting such as an immediate alarm condition -- bad rap breakers being deal breakers, for example.

I have been able to confirm that UL has not retracted its listings remaining on currently-installed old FPE boxes and breakers. This is not because UL does not ever retract its listings -- it has for some "really bad players" for a wide variety of products. However, I have also been able to confirm that some old FPE breakers were not made so that their operation would be as reliable as we should expect on over-current protection devices.

Newer technology breakers have been made (and some continue to be sold by Home Depot -- at least online at homedepot.com) that fit and work in FPE panels. Some appear to be NOS never-been-used while others are described as "refurbished." As I understand, UL does not test or list refurbished equipment, and that a used breaker, although perhaps still carrying a UL marking, may no longer be -- and likely is not -- as reliable as new (who knows where it's been and whats it's done in earlier incarnations).

So, based on my understanding at this point, as I have tried to outline above, I have a question:

How do those of you who have dispassionate views on the FPE breaker issue feel about a retrofit of NOS UL-listed non-FPE breakers being installed in an old FPE panel to directly replace all of the FPE-made breakers?

That is, if an existing installed FPE load center had all of the older FPE-made breakers removed (especially the 240-volt 2-pole breakers that some websites claim do not trip with a line-to-neutral fault) and then retrofit with New-Old-Stock American Breaker breakers that were made to fit directly into the FPE panels, would the load center then be as reliable as we should expect for current-overload protection?

Thank you for any and all comments.

 

[celtic]

How do those of you who have dispassionate views on the FPE breaker issue feel about a retrofit of NOS UL-listed non-FPE breakers being installed in an old FPE panel to directly replace all of the FPE-made breakers?

That is, if an existing installed FPE load center had all of the older FPE-made breakers removed (especially the 240-volt 2-pole breakers that some websites claim do not trip with a line-to-neutral fault) and then retrofit with New-Old-Stock American Breaker breakers that were made to fit directly into the FPE panels, would the load center then be as reliable as we should expect for current-overload protection?

Thank you for any and all comments.

I think there would still be a problem.

Along with the issues of OEM FPE CBs, is the actual buss itself. FPE made a few different buss configurations, some of them are:
Punched

"Z"

"Stabbed" ("E" shaped)

Of the three types illustrated, the one shown as "Stabbed" (or "E") is known to have a high probability of deteriorating and overheating of the stab socket structures when subjected to significant current flow. Each individual stab socket plate is connected to its bussbar via a post (spacer), and the assembly is held together by an 8-32 steel screw. FPE panels with this construction are prone to overheating failure.

Being that the buss itself also contributes to the problems associated with FPE, how does a new or "refirbushed" CB address that issue?

That question, taken in conjunction with the fact that FPE basically lied to get their UL rating, and was summarily the defendant in a class action lawsuit (which FPE lost)...leds ME to believe that FPE - AND so-called "replacements" - should be avoided at ALL cost.

Why there would be any interest in a HO keeping any FPE equipment/replacement FPE equipment in their home/property with the risk of fire/catastrophy to themselves, family and property eludes me.

 

[buildingellicott]

Celtic, Thank you!

Celtic, Thank you!

If the problem was breakers only and the FPE load centers had perfect buses, then maybe a breaker change-out would help, it seems.

Your ending statement is good. In a case I'm looking into, the selling homeowner wants to know what obligation he/she should accept if the house being sold has an FPE load center (and of the Stab-Lok variety too). I would agree that a homeowner should place a load center upgrade on his/her to-do list at a fairly high priority if they are living in a home with an FPE load center.

It would be hard to convince me that UL is untrustworthy in any way. It is my understanding that the UL markings on FPE equipment as installed and not changed, for say 30 years, are still as valid as they were at the date of new installation. So, should the home seller be required to upgrade from FPE at no cost to the home buyer (after contract price was set, for example) and if so, where does the obligation stop? Homes built to 1960s / 1970s codes, and with equipment having UL listings at the time, are likely quite deficient as to codes existing in 2006.

It is an interesting issue. I'll have to read more on the well-done New Jersey case. We likely all can agree that any defects with specific FPE equipment are the fault of the manufacturer, not of either the home owners or the electrical contractors who used/installed FPE equipment in good faith. As to who should pay to fix the defects is likely something with no uniform agreement among persons of equally high qualification and all able to view the issue dispassionately.

Anyhow, thanks again, and thanks to Mike for hosting this forum. Best regards to all.

 

[celtic]

Here are some links for FPE:
[FPE Panels - Hazard or Hype?]

[Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) Electrical Hazards Website]

I can supply you with the FPE Class Action Application (.pdf) if you like...the time has EXPIRED on this action, but the information is still valid.
Just PM me with an email address and I will send it.

 

[renosteinke]

Breaker, Breaker 19 -- Federal Specific

Ahh, the good ol' FPE controversy..... and the same principles apply to an entirely different breaker, the "Zinsco." To a lessere extent, throw in K&T wiring and fuse boxes!

From what I've seen, HI's leave an awful lot to be desired. Among the temptations in any type of inspection work are:
- To focus on things that can be easily seen;
- To avoid any sort of value judgement;
- To begin to think you are somehow the only 'expert' around; and,
- To get caught up in hysteria.

It is far easier to simply say "this is bad", or "insurance companies don't like this", than to delve into things on a deeper level.

Almost everything I will now say about FPE also will apply to the other things I mentioned.
Our lives have changed considerably over just our lifetimes. The house we grew up in would likely neither meet current codes, nor be adequate for out daily lives.
This did not happen overnight; and, for a variety of reasons, we tend to try to 'improve' things, rather then tear them down and start over. Many times, the 'improvements' are made by well-meaning, ignorant, folks.
So we see 3-prong receptacles added to two-wire circuits; 30 amp fuses on #14 wires; multiple wires under a single panel screw; light sockets used as fuseholders; flying splices, where romex is tied into the K&T, etc.
I submit that THESE are the real hazards to worry about in an older home.

As for the maker of a particular breaker.... well, sometimes they change design, or go out of business. When that happens, it gets harder to find replacement parts, and the replacements might not be UL listed. Nor will newer technology (such as GFCI and AFCI) always be available.

Ironically, I have not seen any HI object to Sq D "XO" breakers... even though these same issues are present. HI's also seem unaware that the "FPE" design is made by a number of manufactures- ranging from unlisted chinese "Unique" to Sq D's parent, Schneider. Schneider actively markets this system in Canada.

IMO, the presence of FPE is but an indication that the house might be way overdue for a complete electrical upgrade (and I don't mean just a service change). This has more to do with the age of the house, and "improvements" made, than the name on the panel.

 

[petersonra]

I think that you can probably replace the whole panel with a nice new one for not much more than just replacing the breakers in the existing panel.

The main issue being that new panels tend to be substantially larger.

 

[celtic]

The main issue being that new panels tend to be substantially larger.

I thought the main issue was that FPE's simply don't work properly.

 

[petersonra]

I thought the main issue was that FPE's simply don't work properly.

that is an issue of course.

the "main issue" i was referring to was if one decided to replace the panel with a new one.

 

[buildingellicott]

Thanks to all!

Thanks to all!

Celtic, et al, Thank you for sharing your insights and expertise. All of the responses have been eloquent, dispassionate, and helpful. You have all prevented this puzzled person from having a Main Disconnect as to FPE and so on. With safety as the main issue, decisions keeping that in mind become easier to make. I have learned a lot here, and again, thanks for your comments.

 

[jinglis]

Very interesting. Here in Canada, I have never heard of this issue with FPE. They did have a recall a few years back on single pole 15 amp breakers but they stood behind that and payed contractors to replace the defective breakers. I have printed off some of the material from prior posts for detailed reading. My experience with FPE is extensive. 20 years in the service industry both residential and commercial. Until reading this topic FPE was the push in breaker of choice for me. I still use them. I have replaced a lot of breakers and panels from loose connections causing permanent damage to the buss. FPE is not one that comes to mind. In fact I don't ever recall changing a stab-lok breaker that caused permanent damage to the buss. I know that some of the old buss configurations did not allow for all breakers to be installed. I guess that comes down to knowing what is right and what is wrong. I was also under the impression that the E and F type breakers ( type NCO and NA here in Canada) were designed to expand under load to tighten the connection on the buss? Once again this site offers lots of interesting topics to promote thought. Thanks.