Breakers not tripping?

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tonyou812

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North New Jersey
I was working on a high bay light in a parking garage the other day and I had to open the junction box for the light and when i took the cover off and moved some wires around (this 2G FS box was overfilled by a lot) one of the #10 thhn shorted out on the box, whose only ground was the 3/4 rigid. And I mean bad. It was shooting sparks for like 6 or 7 seconds. The wire was fed from a Johnston Lighting control panel. This panel has suffered water damage and i had to shunt out many of the relays so i could find out which ones worked and which ones did'nt. I was surprised that the main in the same room didnt trip. It went all the way back to the main switch gear in a totally other building 100 feet away. what would cause this? Bad ground at the main breaker in the same room? Oh sorry this is 277/480. And the lights are 277, the main service gear is siemens
 
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1.You said it tripped the main in another location. Did this main have Ground Fault Protection, if so what was the GFP setting (Current and Time).
2.Did the circuit breakers get wet, if so they should be replaced.
3.What tripped and how depends on the size of the circuit breakers upstream from the 20 amp circuit breaker, if the electrical distribution system has proper coordination this should not happen USUALLY, but as noted above with the GFP, defective breakers, there are instances where it will occur.
 
Is the panel where this circuit is fed also Siemens?
I've heard bad things(such as wires wiggling in pipes) about Siemens inverse time breakers.
I imagine their electronic stuff is okay, perhaps that's why the main tripped and not the simple 20A breaker.
 
Sparky:

Wires "WIGGILING" in conduits is typically a byproduct of inrush currents, conductors in conduits going from no load to motor starting will try to move away from each other due to magnetic forces. This results in the snapping noise that is ofter heard.

The most likely reason a main trips in lieu of a down stream circuit breaker (on a 277/480 VAC grounded system) is as noted, GFP on the main or circuit breaker coordination or lack there of.
 
One way to look at this would be if you see a lot of Sparks, then the Fault is not "Bolted".
Not that a given L-L-L Bolted Fault doesn't produce Sparks, it has a lot less Sparks per Arcs / Flames / Smoke / Sound.

Sparks are normally produced from blasting the Metallic items (box + conductor) into smoldering little pieces of flying debris.
So, when this occurs, there is typically a corresponding drammatic reduction in fault current.

In the case of your Lighting Circuit fault, the level of fault current is very easilly Impeded by the poor conduction of the Fault Current's Path, due to the conditions mentioned (water filled contactor enclosure) + possibly loose fittings and locknuts.

The Sparks 'a flying + Impeded Fault Current Path = Low Fault Current Levels - like peaking at maybe 50 - 100 Amps for 1/2 Second, averaging 40 Amps over a 10 Second time frame.

The Branch Circuit OCPD will see this as a normal thing, and will only trip when the Current Levels for it's Inverse-Time Design points are exceeded (more on this later ..)

So to make it short and simple, the Circuit Breaker would not trip until the Fault became more solid, or something allowed the Fault to draw an extremely higher and steadier Current level - when at such time _SHOULD_ open the OCPD (or something upstream if the last one is unable to respond).

The Main Service Disconnect (Main Breaker) did not trip from this type of Scenario - rather it "Finally" tripped from reading a "Leakage To Ground" or simply, thought it saw an Arc Fault between an Ungrounded Conductor and some metallic enclosure.
That's what the GFPE Main is for.

I bet the Service Capacity is 1000 Amps or higher, and as you mentioned, the System is 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire.

The fact that 6 to 7 Seconds went by before the GFPE tripped, sounds like someone has tweeked the settings to their highest time + current settings, or lowest sensitivity points (trimpots spun by jokers is not a good idea!).

This is sometimes done by Electrical Personnel, in an attempt to keep from tripping the GFPE Main while they are working on stuff - in case they cause an accidental Ground fault (so the Building's Power is not suddenly lost, and every Tenant is mad at them!).

Anyhow, not that this is 100% exactly what happened, but it is the most common result for a Scenario such as yours.

Best way to eliminate the possibility of bringing down the entire Building (with the corresponding sound of the Back-Up Genny's Prime Mover starting up... + complaining Tenants looking for you.... heee heee heee), is not to work on things Live!

If Live work must be done - and the risks are assessed + addressed properly (PPE, tell everyone that "Poo-Poo Occurs" regardless of how much care is taken, procedures created, etc.), do it the right way and only because there is no option to de-energize.

"You Just Cannot Turn That Off Because I Need To Use My Calculator" is not a qualifying reason to do live work.

"If The Power Is Lossed, The Plant Will Explode - Because It Is A Continuous Production Type Manufacturing Process" is a much better excuse, which may warrant live work. :D
(but if coupled with the old "My Calculator Must Be On 24/7" excuse - and you will only be working on the Branch Circuit for the Calculator - tell them to "Take A One-Way Trip To He**" , and maybe help them find the Depot / Terminal, for that particular Trip).

Scott35
 
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