breakers

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gerry

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I have a homeowner requesting something in writing that all the circuit breakers are good due to a real estate inspection for sale of house.Since I can't tell whats good or bad internally I'd rather change them out with new.My ques. are- Should have this inspected just to cover my end? or something in writing for me.T&M or is there a set charge per breaker? Just tell her I can't guarantee any breaker new/old and walk away from this?I have to admit this my first that someone has ask to guarantee breakers because some home inspector says they can be bad.Thanks
 
Re: breakers

Gerry, Sounds like the HI has a reason. Like a Zinsco or FPE panel. In either case, breaker change out would not be effective. The buyer wants to feel warm about this so a complete panel upgrade change out may be the best bet if the above is the factor or over-wired. That's the buyer's contingency per the HI's findings and your expertise. That's why the homeowner's looking for a liability commitment (yours) without negotiation. rbj, Seattle
 
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sounds like another unqualified home inspector to me. consider how many circuit breakers are operational in homes today -- and sure there are a per centage that have some internal problem -- but it doesn't warrent replacing all the breakers. i guess if it was afuse panel, he'd want all the fuses changed since they may be "partially blown". these guys have a license to steal!!!
 
Re: breakers

I've had this request in the past also. I did an amp/volt check and wrote up a document that said in part "at the time of inspection, all circuit breakers were functioning normally and were not overloaded. Assuming normal conditions will continue, all circuit breakers can be expected to continue to function as designed".

This doesn't commit you to anything you can't control.
 
Re: breakers

First you will need to find out what brand of panel/breakers are installed.
If the breakers have been installed for a number of years without any maintenance, you will not know how effective they may be when there is some type of fault. There are many factors that lead to the malfunctioning of circuit breakers.

Me, I would definitely change out all of the breakers, as you most likely do not have the proper equipment necessary to test CBs. Yes I would file for the work. And then I would write a disclaimer that protects you for any future damages. Unfortunately I am not sure how I would word this, you may want to consult an attorney and have help in wording this. I do not think this would be too expensive, certainly not as expensive if you were to screw it up yourself.

Always protect yourself, as no one will ever do as good a job as you in protecting yourself.
 
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I agree with Charlie.
I would be interested to know how the HI came to that conclusion?

I have had to seperate overloaded breakers on one occasion.
 
Re: breakers

Originally posted by pierre:
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If the breakers have been installed for a number of years without any maintenance, you will not know how effective they may be when there is some type of fault.
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Maintenance? Hmmm. My house has two 200amp panels that were installed in 1981. They are full of breakers that have been leading uninteresting lives of quiet desperation. :) Noting much happens, virtually all of them have never tripped, not once.

Think I should treat them to an oil change and lube job? Maybe a front end alignment? :D I promise I'll hire an electrician to maintain them, so this won't count as DIY advice. :cool:

Seriously - There are tens, maybe hundreds of millions of breakers out there in homes, and just like mine the majority have probably been sitting for year quietly conducting electricity without even a nuisance trip. What is this HI expecting? What should an electrician do when asked by a HO in a situation like the OP?

Other than verifying the circuits are not overloaded, and a visual inspection of the breakers, the only option would seem to be a replacement with new breakers if the HO wants to buy some peace of mind.
 
Re: breakers

I agree with Mike. The primary function of a breaker is to trip on a fault or a sustained overload. A secondary function is to remain closed the rest of the time. A vast majority of the time, they are performing this secondary function.

You cannot assert that a breaker will perform its primary function when called upon to do so, without actually imposing an overcurrent and watching it trip. But that test could reduce the life of the breaker, and impact the chances that it would open on a future overload. And even if you did test the breaker and showed that it could trip, you still cannot say that it will trip next time. That would be to attempt to predict the future. IMHO, it would be a breach of professional ethics to make a statement that predicts the future.

As to providing a warrantee, such as "I will fix it for free if it fails," that can and should only be associated with a paid service. For example, "If you pay me for replacing the breakers, I will give you a warrantee against failures." But even that is not the same as issuing a guarantee that the breakers will not fail.

I think the strongest statement you can make solely on the basis of an electrical inspection, without replacing any existing equipment, is that the equipment appears to be in good working order, and that you did not discover anything that would violate any currently applicable codes.
 
Re: breakers

Interestingly, there ARE maintenance instructions for MCCBs right here on MikeHolt:

It is recommended that at least once a year a properly trained and equipped qualified electrician perform the following maintenance task:

Visually inspect the case to determine if any portion indicates overheating; replace the breaker if overheating indications are found.
Check connections for indications of overheating.
Cycle the breaker five times manually.
Check and record the voltage drop across the breaker using a calibrated digital voltmeter (capable of reading three places to the right of the decimal point).
The load should be operated at full load for three hours, or until the breaker reaches normal load temperature; scan the breaker with an IR type non-contact thermometer and record the readings.
Record voltages and note any voltage imbalance from phase to phase.
Current readings should be taken with a true RMS type meter due to the increasing harmonic content in many electrical systems in commercial/industrial facilities today.
Current readings on equipment grounding conductors (where required) for specific machines should be noted. Clamp on type ground-rod circuit resistance reading meters should be used for this task as they can detect both the impedance and the level of current on the conductor if any is present, as other clamp on type amp-meters will not indicate Ma levels.
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This is from Molded Case Circuit Breaker Maintenance
 
Re: breakers

Originally posted by bdarnell:
I've had this request in the past also. I did an amp/volt check and wrote up a document that said in part "at the time of inspection, all circuit breakers were functioning normally and were not overloaded. Assuming normal conditions will continue, all circuit breakers can be expected to continue to function as designed".

This doesn't commit you to anything you can't control.
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Thx bdarnel. I've been asked this also and thats just the answer I've been looking for to write.
 
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two weeks ago i went with my cousin to look at three homes she is considering buying. we met the realtor at each house. one of the first thing we get from the realtor is the housing inspector's report. now the thing that struck me besides the standard comments about the electrical system needing gfic outlets,etc., were the other system comments. one was that the heat pump would not function -- the house had heat strips! another said the sprinkler pump motor was bad ---- the pump's disconnect switch was in the "off" position! that same house was reported to need a new roof --- yes it did --- there was mold growing sooo bad on an upstairs closet ceiling -- it was turning black!! but there was no mention of the mold problem and it was obvious someone had changed the bathroom ceiling near the moldy closet! and at the bottom of the H.I.'s report is a two paragraphed disclaimer!!! i asked the realtor how much they pay for these inspections ---- $300.00 each. many things i came across that should have been reported were not on the paper -- actual code violations. think we're in the wrong business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Re: breakers

At the risk of taking this thread in a different direction, I'll put in my 2? on home inspectors.

In my long and (arguably) illustrious career spanning close to 4 decades now, I have run up on many a H.I. Here locally, they just started licensing them and they are now required to take a training course. Several local companies have sprung up offering the training. I heard an ad on a local radio station just this morning for a 2 week "intensive" training course in home inspection. What is sad about this is that most realtors and homeowners will put more faith and attach more credibility to someone who has been through a 2 week "intensive" training course than someone with 20 or 30 years experience.

This is not be construed as a blanket condemnation of all H.I.'s. I'm sure there are many who are well qualified. I just haven't met them yet. ;)
 
Re: breakers

IMO, the wise thing to do here (if the panel is in good shape) is to replace all of the circuit breakers and let the homeowner keep any manufacturers literature explaining warranties and such. If these homeowners are looking for piece of mind, why not do this? Of course a safety inspection while you are there including checking for overloaded circuits would be in order. I would not write up a document accepting complete liability, let the manufacturers literature suffice here. Nobody can predict the future and reasonable people will understand this. Give them a price and ease their mind if this is what they are seeking. Give them your standard warranty on your work and some literature from the manufacturer of the new circuit breakers. You can't tell G.M you want a gaurantee on your new van that it will NEVER break down, they won't do this, this is what the warranty is for.
 
Re: breakers

Originally posted by bdarnell:
At the risk of taking this thread in a different direction, I'll put in my 2? on home inspectors.

In my long and (arguably) illustrious career spanning close to 4 decades now, I have run up on many a H.I. Here locally, they just started licensing them and they are now required to take a training course. Several local companies have sprung up offering the training. I heard an ad on a local radio station just this morning for a 2 week "intensive" training course in home inspection. What is sad about this is that most realtors and homeowners will put more faith and attach more credibility to someone who has been through a 2 week "intensive" training course than someone with 20 or 30 years experience.

This is not be construed as a blanket condemnation of all H.I.'s. I'm sure there are many who are well qualified. I just haven't met them yet. ;)
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I used to think the same about POCOs troubleshooters. That was until I worked with a couple who really knew what they were doing. I'd get call from HO saying POCO said such and such. Come to find out POCO was full of s***. After working with someone from POCO that was good, I came to realize most of the time HO wouldn't call me if person from POCO was any good.

I suspect that there are a lot of HI who are reasonably good at what they do. Mostly we won't here about them.

I even have one calling me on occasion to question one thing or another.
 
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will replacing al the breakers ensure the bus bars, lug connections, etc are all in good shape? While we are at it, maybee we should replace all the wire nuts in the house to make sure they don't fail in the near future also.
 
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If the buyer plugs a splitter into a receptacle then connects 2 toaster ovens, a hot plate, and a coffee maker into the resulting 4 connection points (My grandmother did this, God rest her soul) and the breaker trips because the load on the 20 amp breaker is in the neighborhood of 40 amps, does this constitute a "failure"? Would you then be held liable to make the the system tolerate this kind of mis-use despite the fact that there is no code acceptable way to make it do so?

Run from this one, I think!
 
Re: breakers

Originally posted by gerry:
I have a homeowner requesting something in writing that all the circuit breakers are good due to a real estate inspection for sale of house.Since I can't tell whats good or bad internally I'd rather change them out with new.My ques. are- Should have this inspected just to cover my end? or something in writing for me.T&M or is there a set charge per breaker? Just tell her I can't guarantee any breaker new/old and walk away from this?I have to admit this my first that someone has ask to guarantee breakers because some home inspector says they can be bad.Thanks
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Hello guys,
I wrote a request in Safety Form about a problem in Florida with insurance companies not issuing policies for older homes (over 50). Their explaination is that the wire insulation in due to fail. A will only consider issuing a policy if an electrical home inspection is conducted and AFGI's are installed for all feeder curcuits.
Can anyone tell me what's going on? Thanks.
 
Re: breakers

Can anyone tell me what's going on? Thanks.
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Greed. Here on Long Island, Allstate has decided not to renew any homeowners policies, unless you're fully (cars, boats, and homeowner's) insured with Allstate. Those policies will be dropped at the maximum rate allowed by law. (2-5% per year) They claim they're too exposed to risk in the Northeast region, and a Cat 5 hurricane such as the ones sen in Fla. and La. would wipe out the company.

Let's forget that fact that all insurers are re-insured by each other and specialty re-insurance companies. Let's also set aside the logic that risk-assessment and risk-taking are an insurer's primary function.

And while we're at it, let's ignore the fact that the Atlantic off the Northeastern coast is never warm enough to support a hurricane above Cat 3. in the N.E. region.

What is happening is insurance companies only want to write policies they have little or no chance of ever having to pay out on, at any price. Much in the same way health care providers don't want to insure you if you have a pre-existing condition.
 
Re: breakers

Originally posted by macmikeman:
Take a good look at this. http://www.koinstruments.com/ [/URL
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Not cheap - $1,000 plus $ 0.50 per breaker to test. ($500 module only lasts 1,000 CB tests.)
 
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