BREAKERS
- Thread starter gimpyfac
- Start date
- Status
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: BREAKERS
If it is listed for such.
If it is listed for such.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: BREAKERS
And if you splice in the panel you will have to comply with 312.8
And if you splice in the panel you will have to comply with 312.8
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: BREAKERS
Ryan, I'm curious, have you ever seen a panel where that's been an issue? I haven't. Even the worst looking rats nest usually still has lots of space if all the wires were squashed together
I suppose some must exist somewhere though...
Anyone have any horror show pics of an attrociously stuffed panel (that's legal) where this could be an issue?
Ryan, I'm curious, have you ever seen a panel where that's been an issue? I haven't. Even the worst looking rats nest usually still has lots of space if all the wires were squashed together
I suppose some must exist somewhere though...
Anyone have any horror show pics of an attrociously stuffed panel (that's legal) where this could be an issue?
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: BREAKERS
Hi Tony. I have red-taggd for this only one time. It was on a new house and they had a funky lighting system (I can't remember exactly what it was) that required a lot of splicing. Instead of a gutter or even a large J-box, they had spliced literally about 90% of the conductors inside of the panel board.
I agree, it doesn't happen very often, and if done properly, you could splice a huge amount of wires in a panel.
Hi Tony. I have red-taggd for this only one time. It was on a new house and they had a funky lighting system (I can't remember exactly what it was) that required a lot of splicing. Instead of a gutter or even a large J-box, they had spliced literally about 90% of the conductors inside of the panel board.
I agree, it doesn't happen very often, and if done properly, you could splice a huge amount of wires in a panel.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: BREAKERS
Hardly think that if you had 3 or 4 splices that anyone would even think about it.Now if there are say 20 i might have a problem.
Hardly think that if you had 3 or 4 splices that anyone would even think about it.Now if there are say 20 i might have a problem.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: BREAKERS
Ryan did you do the math to know it was violating the rules or did you red tag it just because it was ugly?
Ryan did you do the math to know it was violating the rules or did you red tag it just because it was ugly?
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: BREAKERS
Bob, after pondering this overnight, I believe the place where this is most likely to be an issue is a feeder distribution panel that's smallish and had a bunch of splitbolt splices in it.
If you took the smallest 100A panel you could find, did everything in aluminum (bigger wire), and spliced every feeder in it...
There's small 6/12 QO with a single row of breakers horizontally that has very little wiring space on the sides that would have problems if you tried to splitbolt 3 #2 4-wire AL feeders in it.
Bob, after pondering this overnight, I believe the place where this is most likely to be an issue is a feeder distribution panel that's smallish and had a bunch of splitbolt splices in it.
If you took the smallest 100A panel you could find, did everything in aluminum (bigger wire), and spliced every feeder in it...
There's small 6/12 QO with a single row of breakers horizontally that has very little wiring space on the sides that would have problems if you tried to splitbolt 3 #2 4-wire AL feeders in it.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: BREAKERS
Bob: In all honesty, no I did not do the math.
When I do a final, I always remove panel covers. On this panel, when I began removing the screws, I started to feel the force of the amount of junk in the panel pushing the cover into me! I didn't do the calculations, and perhaps I should have. Again, I've only called this the one time, and if this was a remodel I would have done the math. I don't do it very often, but I red-tagged this as much over principle as anything else...something I very very seldom do.
I would bet that if I did the math, however, it would have been teetering on the brink of compliance/non-compliance.
Bob: In all honesty, no I did not do the math.
When I do a final, I always remove panel covers. On this panel, when I began removing the screws, I started to feel the force of the amount of junk in the panel pushing the cover into me!
I didn't do the calculations, and perhaps I should have. Again, I've only called this the one time, and if this was a remodel I would have done the math. I don't do it very often, but I red-tagged this as much over principle as anything else...something I very very seldom do. I would bet that if I did the math, however, it would have been teetering on the brink of compliance/non-compliance.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: BREAKERS
Tonyi
If we didn't have the panel cover in place and all the screws in it would mean a red tag around here.
Tonyi
If we didn't have the panel cover in place and all the screws in it would mean a red tag around here.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: BREAKERS
Tony For us it is the same as Wayne describes.
If the panel covers are off when the inspector shows up for final he would (or could) fail us.
It has nothing to do with trust, the job is done or it's not.
Final for us means 100% complete, not 100% minus a plate or cover.
Ryan inspectors here do not carry tools. if they want to see something they say open that.
Tony For us it is the same as Wayne describes.
If the panel covers are off when the inspector shows up for final he would (or could) fail us.
It has nothing to do with trust, the job is done or it's not.
Final for us means 100% complete, not 100% minus a plate or cover.
Ryan inspectors here do not carry tools. if they want to see something they say open that.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: BREAKERS
Bob: On my commercial jobs it is as you describe. On residential, however, I'm normally the only person in the house, and I expect the covers to be in place. I remove and replace the things that I look at.
Re: BREAKERS
Ryan,
Do you use the required PPE when removing panel covers? I have never encountered an inspector who posessed the necessary PPE to remove the cover of an energized panel. Maybe you kill the disconnect outside, if there is one, or have the PoCo pull the meter for your inspection?
Ryan,
Do you use the required PPE when removing panel covers? I have never encountered an inspector who posessed the necessary PPE to remove the cover of an energized panel. Maybe you kill the disconnect outside, if there is one, or have the PoCo pull the meter for your inspection?
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: BREAKERS
They had a very good article on that in IAEI magazine in a few months ago.
I de-energize the house when I remove panel covers.
They had a very good article on that in IAEI magazine in a few months ago.
I de-energize the house when I remove panel covers.
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: BREAKERS
On final here the panel covers have to be in place...The inspectors are required to open the panel check all terminations ,check for proper phasing of wires and for contamination.Then they are required to reinstall the covers so as not to create more work for the EC.I walked 8 finals yesterday with ahj and he wouldn`t let me reinstall the panel covers for him,said that his boss would flip if he saw that.Passed 7 of the 8.The one that failed was for paint on the neutral bar.Kind of lame but it is what it is.
On final here the panel covers have to be in place...The inspectors are required to open the panel check all terminations ,check for proper phasing of wires and for contamination.Then they are required to reinstall the covers so as not to create more work for the EC.I walked 8 finals yesterday with ahj and he wouldn`t let me reinstall the panel covers for him,said that his boss would flip if he saw that.Passed 7 of the 8.The one that failed was for paint on the neutral bar.Kind of lame but it is what it is.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: BREAKERS
Ryan
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/03_c/mjohnston_workplace_safety/magazine_03c_mjohnston1.htm
Mike P.
Ryan
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/03_c/mjohnston_workplace_safety/magazine_03c_mjohnston1.htm
Mike P.
- Status