breakfast nook

[smclott]

When complying with the kitchen / dining room receptical circuit requirements,,,,,, is a breakfast nook considered dining room if there is no formal dining room? What about a breakfast nook if there is a formal dining room? I'll define a breakfast nook as a small area attached to the kitchen intended as the informal eating area.

thanks,
smclott

 

[speedypetey]

Re: breakfast nook

Why would it matter? You would still need to wire it 12ga/20a.
210.52(B)(1) clearly mentions "Breakfast Room" in the list of associated kitchen rooms. The small appliance branch circuits can be shared between these rooms if need be. If there are only one or two receptacles in a nook or DR we often tack them onto the small appliance circuits.

 

[smclott]

Re: breakfast nook

Correct me if I am mistaken,, the DR recepticals can be on the kitchen counter receptical circuit ,, or on their own circuit. Which would mean that the DR recepticals can't be combined with non kitchen counter recepticals.

So if that is the case I was wondering if a breakfast nook is considered a dining room.

 

[hurk27]

Re: breakfast nook

I have to agree with this. As with big dinners like around holidays this is right where all the crock pots, extra coffee pots, food warmers and even extra microwaves go (mostly because of the smaller kitchens today). I had a room off the kitchen that on the print it was called a sun room but there was a peninsula that had a breakfast bar on the side in this sun room.We were red tagged because one of our guys wired it on a 15 amp circuit. We had to rewire it on a 20 amp circuit because the AHJ said it is part of the breakfast area. and I had to agree.
The last thing I would want is a breaker tripping when I have company over and I'm showing off my new house This is why I try to install enough circuits in the kitchen area to keep this from happening.

 

[speedypetey]

Re: breakfast nook

Well a nook is listed in the same sentence with DR so it's considered a similar area.
It also states no other outlets can be combined with small appliance circuits, and rooms, listed in 210.52(B).

 

[jimwalker]

Re: breakfast nook

IMO you could (not should) have 2 circuits feeding every thing from brk nook ,DR,pantry,kitchen(but not 2 kitchens) , along with the frig..You will have a very unhappy customer if this is an upscale house.
As to tagging that breakfast bar ,one might argue that it is a wet bar.
Usually the AHJ is stuck with what it was called on the approved prints.If indeed it was to be a breakfast bar it might indeed have a toaster and MR coffee maker.Kinda tough call.

 

[bill addiss]

Re: breakfast nook

Correct me if I am mistaken,, the DR recepticals can be on the kitchen counter receptical circuit ,, or on their own circuit. Which would mean that the DR recepticals can't be combined with non kitchen counter recepticals.

The DR recepticals can be on the same circuit as the required 20A circuit Kitchen wall receptacles.

Bill

 

[jimwalker]

Re: breakfast nook

Your reading it wrong.
210.11 c 1
210.52 b 3 additional small appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply recepticle outlets in kitchen and other rooms specified in 210 b 1
The DR and say breakfast nook could share a circuit that never entered a kitchen or could if you so desired

 

[bthielen]

Re: breakfast nook

I would have to agree that the "breakfast nook" is a similar area to a dining area and should be included in the small appliance circuits. My question is why does it matter? Knowing that it will quite likely be used for appliances such as crock pots, hot plates, deep fryers, etc., it would seem these receptacles will probably be serving small appliances. The code doesn't forbid it so why not make it better and prevent future issues? The cost difference is minimal compared to the entire project cost.

Bob

 

[jimwalker]

Re: breakfast nook

There are 2 ways to wire kitchen,dining,brkfast nook.
1. the way you would if it was your house (dedicate run for DR and brkfast)
2. the way it was bidded which probably is 2 circuits cover everything.Its just a few dollars differance but thruout a house these things add up.In the bid game today you got to stay cheap to win it.Chances are they wont be used at same time as the kitchen counter.If this is upscale house i probably would have 4 circuits plus frig on its own

 

[speedypetey]

Re: breakfast nook

Jim pretty much summed it up.

We all know we usually run at least two +fridge to the kitchen plus one (or more) to the DR/Nook.

 

[binney]

Re: breakfast nook

Although I ran 3 20a circuits for my kitchen outltes, 2 20a circuis in my dinning roon (1 was a possible location for our computer)a 10-2 on a 20a cic for my micro (minimize V-drop), and a 20a cir for my ref. It all seems overkill when the original kitchen operated for years without tripping a breaker, and it was all on together with the lights.

 

[tim]

Re: breakfast nook

Put the fridge on it's own circuit, micro on its own circuit, dishwasher-disposal on thier own circuit, 3 recepticals per gfci on a circuit and you will never have a problem. Tim..

 

[jimwalker]

Re: breakfast nook



[ December 23, 2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: breakfast nook

You may be overkill but you will be trouble free and happy camper.20 years from now who knows what we might have or want.Just look back 20 and ask COMPUTER why would i want one ?
Would be great if we could wire them all like that.That 10-2 someday might pay off should you buy a com.micro..very good planning.
When doing our own house the cost is very small.

[ December 23, 2003, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[slicer]

Re: breakfast nook

The market needs to drive construction back to building it the way you would build your own house and stop with this cheap low-ball bidding ****. Customers need to see the writing on the wall and put the stuff in on the original build.

*Of course that would limit all the service calls for upgrades, so maybe not...*

 

[jimwalker]

Re: breakfast nook

They can easily have it there way.The contract just needs to say what they want above min code.
If i am bidding and all the contract requires is min. then thats what you get.
If you want steak ,order steak, if you just order meat you get hamberger.
Do you think they cost the same ?
This is compitition.You get what you pay for,and nothing more.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: breakfast nook

I don`t know how others wire a home here, but we have a company standard 6 20 amp circuits 1 dr/nook receps.,1 micro/ignitor ,1 d/w, 1 disp and 2 appliance circuits.It works out in the long run for us and we did 2,000 homes this year and expect 2,500 next so we worry about the call back ratio that gets expensive.......

 

[jimwalker]

Re: breakfast nook

Allen depending on the size of kitchen i might even give it 3
Keeping GC and buyer happy is worth it.
The more he sells the more you wire.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: breakfast nook

allen, we do the same, but could also have 3 sm. app. ckts as Jim. We also have a standard seperate frige ckt.
Then there are the trash smasher, wine chiller, 2nd disposal, 2nd dishwasher, and sometimes a brewmeister.