Building control panels, pricing.....

[Mule]

Got a email from a freind today that has a huge controls business. He goes all over the world with his products. He's wanting to know if I'd be interested in contracting some panel work. I've done quite a bit, but it's been some years ago. Im supposed to call him tomorrow....I might be interested if the price is right as my feet have been bothering me....

Whats the labor market for this kind of work as compared to premise work?

 

[brantmacga]

there's a company that does this type of work not too far from here;

pay for assemblers starts around $12/hr; no experience needed. i think its like any other assembly line job. being its not a "skilled trade", its low-level pay.

 

[Mule]

there's a company that does this type of work not too far from here;

pay for assemblers starts around $12/hr; no experience needed. i think its like any other assembly line job. being its not a "skilled trade", its low-level pay.

Well that's water in the face.... My feet are not hurting that bad....

So....what about contracting rates? any better?

 

[brantmacga]

Well that's water in the face.... My feet are not hurting that bad....

So....what about contracting rates? any better?

well i'm sure they are.

but the point is, you need some low pay employees giving you a high enough output to be profitable. its like doing tract homes.



remember too that the hourly wage i listed above is for one of the lowest cost-of-living places in the country. $12/hr here is equivalent to a really good helper's pay.

 

[Mule]

well i'm sure they are.

but the point is, you need some low pay employees giving you a high enough output to be profitable. its like doing tract homes.

I really dont have any reason yet to think this is volume work. Knowing his business, I would guess it's more custom piece work....

 

[nunu161]

you can charge him per cabinet,have him ship you everything and build the cabinet at night in your spare time you dont have to go out and you can assemble inbetween posts

 

[brantmacga]

I really dont have any reason yet to think this is volume work. Knowing his business, I would guess it's more custom piece work....

i see.

you could discuss with him what he has in mind for pay, and see if it suits you.


i don't think you could charge your typical service rate for this work.


the only advice could offer on determining a rate is to formulate a separate budget, and consider this another company.

you won't have a service truck, so you can cut out fuel, insurance, etc. . . from the budget. you'll only need tools specific to these panels; get the picture?

 

[Mule]

i see.

you could discuss with him what he has in mind for pay, and see if it suits you.


i don't think you could charge your typical service rate for this work.


the only advice could offer on determining a rate is to formulate a separate budget, and consider this another company.

you won't have a service truck, so you can cut out fuel, insurance, etc. . . from the budget. you'll only need tools specific to these panels; get the picture?

I'll know more tomorrow.....

 

[growler]

Whats the labor market for this kind of work as compared to premise work?

Mule it wouldn't hurt to talk to the guy and see what he's offering.

The size and complexity of the panels is going to have a lot to do with what the pay is going to be. If it's a simple job and anyone can do the work it won't pay much but if they are specifically engineered for a project ( more like building a proto-type) then is can require skill to build and test and will pay better.

I would check out the situation and see if he is wanting an assembly line operation or if he is wanting specific hand built panels. If they only do a few of each type they can't afford to set it up as an assembly process or he may only want you to build the proto-types or demo versions for test purposes so they can work any faults out.

 

[Mr. Wizard]

Mule, do you know what components and devices are involved with builing those panels? I've built them in the past, and depending on whats involved, a "per point" pricing system may work well. That's where you'd basically charge for each termination. What do those panels control?

 

[Mule]

Mule it wouldn't hurt to talk to the guy and see what he's offering.

The size and complexity of the panels is going to have a lot to do with what the pay is going to be. If it's a simple job and anyone can do the work it won't pay much but if they are specifically engineered for a project ( more like building a proto-type) then is can require skill to build and test and will pay better.

I would check out the situation and see if he is wanting an assembly line operation or if he is wanting specific hand built panels. If they only do a few of each type they can't afford to set it up as an assembly process or he may only want you to build the proto-types or demo versions for test purposes so they can work any faults out.

I'm thinking it might be something my wife would be interested in, with my assistance as needed. We've been wanting her to quit her job and help with the business and this might be just the transitional item to make it happen...I'm thinking I will ask to drive down and see his operation..

Mule, do you know what components and devices are involved with builing those panels? I've built them in the past, and depending on whats involved, a "per point" pricing system may work well. That's where you'd basically charge for each termination. What do those panels control?

No, Hopefully I find out what the components are, and the volume. And your right there could be 100 wires to land or just as easily a 1000 wires in one enclosure and being paid by the point might be a reasonable way to charge.

He's a guitar player I met in a jam session last spring via some mutual freinds, we got to visiting in lawn chairs over a glass of ice tea. He told me back then in detail what all they did, going to China and other Countries with his products, but I really can't remember, Slept since then....I know it was a mixture of motor controls and PLC components. I know he writes his own logic, because I remember having a discussion about a Slick 500 class I took.

Im just trying to see if anyone has contracted this type of work before...??

 

[petersonra]

Got a email from a freind today that has a huge controls business. He goes all over the world with his products. He's wanting to know if I'd be interested in contracting some panel work. I've done quite a bit, but it's been some years ago. Im supposed to call him tomorrow....I might be interested if the price is right as my feet have been bothering me....

Whats the labor market for this kind of work as compared to premise work?

I work for a panel builder. The competition is fierce because the barrier to entry is very low. It keeps pricing very competitive.

If you are used to doing typical construction type electrician work, chances are it will take you 6 months or more to get to the point where you can do the work as fast as the $12 an hour guy can. It takes that long for it to become automatic.

It tends to be very repetitive type work. That may or may not bother you.

One thing that is radically different is the need to be able to read and understand control schematics. For some reason, this is a tough skill for a lot of construction guys to pick up.

 

[Mule]

I work for a panel builder. The competition is fierce because the barrier to entry is very low. It keeps pricing very competitive.

If you are used to doing typical construction type electrician work, chances are it will take you 6 months or more to get to the point where you can do the work as fast as the $12 an hour guy can. It takes that long for it to become automatic.

It tends to be very repetitive type work. That may or may not bother you.

One thing that is radically different is the need to be able to read and understand control schematics. For some reason, this is a tough skill for a lot of construction guys to pick up.

In truth, Im not a construction guy, and , I've built alot of these panels from dwgs in the past, just not for a pushy employer......

I did talk to the guy today, and here's what I learned. They only do 8-10 of these type jobs per year. This is a Chiller control cabinet, that is control only. No chiller power components. Cabinet is 96"x78"...the cabinet is already out of state on job site. The backplane and all of the components would be shipped to me, I would do the assembly and they would pick it up. He is going to email me pdf dwgs this afternoon for me to review, as I dont have cad.

The client said he would estimate 30-40hrs of work. Time line is about 3 weeks out, which fits our current backlog. I asked about rates, quotes and the like, and he said local panel shops are $45-50/hr. He said just give him a proposal and a NTE price and I can do it by the hour if I want.... So I dont know, We'll just have to see what our backlog looks like when we do the proposal....If our backlog continues to stay healthy, I'll pass. If it doesnt, $400/day is ok for us, and it beats no work, if that is the case. Right now, incoming jobs are getting slim, xxxxx ....

 

[petersonra]

Hard to tell just how much labor would be in something like this. I wonder why they are so big though. Chiller panels are usually pretty simple and the ones we build are much smaller.

If you can get 6 or 8 weeks worth of work per year with virtually no risk, and no work to get it, you should jump at it.

 

[Cow]

Is your shop UL listed for building control panels?

Some of the inspectors around here will make you tear it out if it doesn't have that UL sticker.

 

[Mule]

Is your shop UL listed for building control panels?

Some of the inspectors around here will make you tear it out if it doesn't have that UL sticker.

Yes I know, Apparently this job it wont be a issue, but the other work that the client has is required to done by a UL shop. And Im not sure what it takes to achieve that.

For the life of me, by using UL approved compents inside, a UL enclosure, and wiring according to NEC and fully engineered dwgs to boot.......Ah dont get me started on UL listings.....I just dont get it....

If you buy a PLC off the shelf, what are you going to install it in? DUH a box, what kind? A Hoffman? How big? enough to provide ample wire bending radius, etc. How are you going to make your field terminations? DUH Din rail and terminals sized for the circuit.......makes my blood red ,,,,,UL, It's a racket IMO.....

Its like me buying a little 120v air conditioner at Lowes last summer. It has a GFI protected cord that is a molded assembly. BIG STICKER says....WARNING, THIS IS A UL APPROVED ASSEMBLY, IF THIS CORD FAILS, IT MUST BE RETURNED TO THE FACTORY FOR REPLACEMENT,DO NOT REPLACE THE CORD.....YEA like that's going to happen....

 

[benaround]

You only get to say " No thank you " one time !

 

[Mule]

Buying TEW 1015, Beldon 8760 wire cuts

Buying TEW 1015, Beldon 8760 wire cuts

Does andy body know where I can buy wire cut quanities of TEW 1015 #12awg (red, black, white, green) & Beldon 8760 wire at a reasonable price? also beldon #14awg 3088a...This panel job is really going to be small quanities. I'm sure my supplier will only sell full rolls, I guess I could sell the balance on ebay when Im done???

 

[petersonra]

Does andy body know where I can buy wire cut quanities of TEW 1015 #12awg (red, black, white, green) & Beldon 8760 wire at a reasonable price? also beldon #14awg 3088a...This panel job is really going to be small quanities. I'm sure my supplier will only sell full rolls, I guess I could sell the balance on ebay when Im done???

TEW? Most MTW is also TEW.

 

[Mule]

TEW? Most MTW is also TEW.

Thanks, The specs requre the TEW, which I assume is Tinned, and didnt know if the machine wire is the same or not...for me it probably better say right on the wire TEW UL #1015

I did find a website that sold 100ft rolls for $43 a pop...havent figured up footage that I need yet...