bulldog breakers compatible with new/other company breaker ?

[nelsonparks]

I have an existing 400 amp panel that is Bulldog push button breakers. The tenet is requesting an upgrade to non-push button breakers. Is it possible to swap pull breakers onto the existing buss bar? Are there any company's compatible to the buss configuration of bulldog breakers?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That is an unique design and I do not believe that there are any other breakers that can be used with the bussing in those panels.

It may be possible to install new guts that will accept other types of breaker in the existing enclosure.

 

[letgomywago]

There are connecticut electric classified replacement available for the breakers

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There are connecticut electric classified replacement available for the breakers

It sounded like he wanted to get rid of the pushamatic type of breaker.

 

[letgomywago]

It sounded like he wanted to get rid of the pushamatic type of breaker.

Ya but he was wanting to see what types of breakers fit. So made me wonder if they just wanted some replaced.

 

[MTW]

The customer has it correct, push-a-matic bulldog has served its useful life. The breakers don’t have a magnetic trip element only thermal, making them obsolete Change the panel interior and cover. The homeowners insurance may require it ar some point.

 

[letgomywago]

The customer has it correct, push-a-matic bulldog has served its useful life. The breakers don’t have a magnetic trip element only thermal, making them obsolete Change the panel interior and cover. The homeowners insurance may require it ar some point.

I don't think this is a residential property with a bulldog 400 amp panel

 

[Fred B]

Other than the mechanism failure rate I like the bolt on breaker of the bulldog. MFG had a monthly exercise requirement that was never met, causing the breakers to fail in that a trip can not be confirmed or reset not always working.

Other than the already mentioned aftermarket replacement breakers, the options are limited. either one replaces the panel sized to the existing enclosure or total replacement of both enclosure and panelboard with more modern.
Problem have come across with retrofitting a panel into the Bulldog enclosure is the newer enlarged wire space requirement in the code compared to when the Bulldog was made, making for a smaller capacity (# of breakers) than the Bulldog would have had in the same footprint.

 

[kwired]

QO or CH being only 3/4" wide have best chances of still fitting something into same cabinet if that method of updating is desired.

 

[letgomywago]

QO or CH being only 3/4" wide have best chances of still fitting something into same cabinet if that method of updating is desired.

CH even has some ul listed options ready to go

 

[Jraef]

There are connecticut electric classified replacement available for the breakers

Be prepared for sticker shock...

There are no "other brands" of breakers that you can retrofit into ANY brand of panel, other than the "Classified" ones. Classified breakers is a UL workaround for the fact that panels are only listed with their own breakers, breakers are only listed in their own panels. But UL came up with "Classified" by saying that if a breaker manufacturer TESTS a breaker in a competitor's panel, they can allow the breaker to be used for retrofitting, allowing old obsolete panels to have some source of replacement parts. But Classified also means it must be tested in a SPECIFIC panel or list of panels, the manufacturers give you the list to check to see if yours is on there (most people just ignore this issue and seem to get away with it).

In this case the only** company that makes Classified breakers for Pushmatic panels is Connecticut Electric, which are intended to allow replacement of onesy-twosie bad breakers, hence the high price. By the time you replace ALL of the old Bulldog breakers in a 400A panel, you will likely have paid 2x the cost of a new panel and breakers from a non-defunct supplier.

**Eaton does make Classified breakers for lots of other current brands and defunct brands of panels, but not Pushmatic.

 

[Fred B]

Be ready also to inform the owner that the requirement is still there even with the new mfg. for the Push Matic breakers to be "exercised" monthly. This was usually the cause of these breaker traditional failures not related to prolonged overcurrent or repeated short circuit or surges.

 

[ramsy]

The breakers don’t have a magnetic trip element only thermal, making them obsolete

Fake News

Bulldog & ITE Pushmatic Circuit Breaker Compatability

ITE / Siemens Bulldog Pushmatic Breaker compatability & FAQs: This article discusses the cross-compatability of Bulldog, Pushmatic & ITE Circuit Breaker compatability & compatability of replacement circuit breakers for these electrical panels. The article continues with reader FAQs about...

inspectapedia.com

Connecticut Electric replacements are also ETL tested to UL 486

 

[ramsy]

By the time you replace ALL of the old Bulldog breakers in a 400A panel, you will likely have paid 2x the cost of a new panel and breakers from a non-defunct supplier.

This Cost-Benefit Analysis missed some equipment costs, unless panel flippers do it without permits.

* AFCI Breakers
Without amendment, since 2011 NEC 406.4(D)(4) inspectors may fail remodel outlets missing AFCI, but put red tag on remodel panel.
Inspectors can't force property owners to install AFCI outlets, unless AFCI breakers don't exists for fuse box, which may cost more than Pushmatic / Bulldog replacements.

* Surge protective devices (SPD)
Depending on adopted code cycle, 2020 NEC requires SPD for new fuse box in existing "dwelling units". 2023 NEC 230.67 and 215.18 expands this to dormitory units, guest rooms/suites of hotels/motels, patient sleeping rooms of nursing homes, and limited-care facilities.

* Main breaker no longer common (ie) 400A vs Double 200A
If same size Main is now uncommon, new feeders are required. This is not free if customer owns any part of service raceway.

* Exterior Disconnect
Without existing outside disconnect, new fuse box will trigger service-rated disconnect switch, enclosure, & raceway.

* Proof of 25 Ohm fall-off potential, or Double Ground Rods
If only one ground rod can be found, that second rod & armored electrode is not free.

* Tree Trimming Services
Utility can't force owners to clear obstacles from fuse box working space, untangle trees from utility wires, or fix land subsidence from damaging laterals, unless approving new services.

* Can someone add more -- is there requirements for future Solar expansion?