Buried Power lines

[hockeyoligist2]

Here in Greenville there is a big stink going on about the ice storm last year and so many people were without power for days. They are all calling for underground lines (from POCO) so the ice doesn't cut power. From my 'experience" I have ran in to more problems with UG than AG. What have been your experiences? Which would you recommend? It isn't up to me to decide........ just looking for opinions. So I can argue the point or shut up!

 

[tallgirl]

Here in Greenville there is a big stink going on about the ice storm last year and so many people were without power for days. They are all calling for underground lines (from POCO) so the ice doesn't cut power. From my 'experience" I have ran in to more problems with UG than AG. What have been your experiences? Which would you recommend? It isn't up to me to decide........ just looking for opinions. So I can argue the point or shut up!

Having spent most of my life in Hurricane Country, I think buried lines would solve a wealth of problems.

I wish I'd taken photos driving down Turnpike Rd in St. Tammany Parish just after Katrina. Or anywhere else, for that matter. My first weekend there the #2 problem, after clearing a bazillion pine trees off of roads, was restringing power lines that were knocked down by those bazillion pine trees.

I've had a number of friends (as well as moi) over the years affected by power lines taken out by ice storms, hurricanes, high winds, and wreckless drivers. Other than one transformer that blew up, I've never experienced a power failure from buried power lines.

Now, if you want to know one thing I think should be above ground it's network cables. Because everyone knows that if you want a backhoe to magically appear, take a 6' length of Cat5 and throw it on the ground. Within 30 minutes a backhoe will magically appear and begin chopping it to bits. Need a new pool dug? Make an outline of the pool in Cat5 and by days end, your pool is dug for free. Works every time.

 

[hockeyoligist2]

Julie I'll remember that next time I have to hand dig a trench........ I think I have some Cat5 laying around somewhere! :0

 

[bob]

Here in Greenville there is a big stink going on about the ice storm last year and so many people were without power for days. They are all calling for underground lines (from POCO) so the ice doesn't cut power. From my 'experience" I have ran in to more problems with UG than AG. What have been your experiences? Which would you recommend? It isn't up to me to decide........ just looking for opinions. So I can argue the point or shut up!

Like Tallgirl, I have spent most of my time hurricane country. The rates here are based on the cost of overhead service. UG lines are installed in subdivisions free. However the main feeders between subs are overhead.
The difference in cost would be vastly increased and would have to be offset by rate increases. This type service would require rows of duct bank, man
holes, pad mtd switches at a higher cost. You won't see this anytime soon.

 

[robbietan]

it was a horrible winter in the late 1800s that isolated Washington DC from the country. the solution is to bury power and communication lines so the event will not repeat.
buried power lines also minimizes the number of power quality events, notably voltage sags due to somethings hitting the overhead lines

one con against buried power lines - co$t$ and more co$t$...

 

[tallgirl]

Julie I'll remember that next time I have to hand dig a trench........ I think I have some Cat5 laying around somewhere! :0

Glad to be of service! I have about 150' of Cat5 on a roll -- I'd be happy to cut off snippets and sell it to y'all as "Backhoe In A Can"

I wonder if underground in the 'hood is a 90% solution -- people not trimming their trees versus municipalities and POCOs being able to trim trees on public ROWs.

Thinking back, it took just a few days for them to rewire St. Tammany from Covington, where they had power, up to Folsom where they didn't along LA25 (think that's right -- some highway between the two). They came through with tracked vehicles with large circular saws on booms and cut the trees off the lines, then reset broken poles. But it was getting into residential streets that took forever -- Dad's street didn't have power until November, I think it was, and he was just a mile and a half off the main road. Here's a piccie of a truck driving a pole north from the lake. It was taken 3 Sept 2005, the Saturday after Katrina --

 

[karl riley]

After one of the recent hurricanes, on Cape Cod and the islands power was out in a lot of areas for some time. Except for Cuttyhunk, one of the islands. No problem. All lines are underground.

When talking about costs, do you figure in the cost of all the repairs after storms? Does that do nothing to rates?

Karl

 

[petersonra]

Capital costs often come out of a different pool of money that operating costs, and repairs come out of operating costs.

Utilities have a much easier time getting money for operations out of the morons that regulate utilities than for capital projects.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

A utility person told me that they figure it is cheaper to replace the overhead system once every 10 years or so than to put the system underground.
Don

 

[tallgirl]

Well, cheaper for them, perhaps, but not "cheaper" for the consumer who's without power for days or weeks on end.

 

[petersonra]

A utility person told me that they figure it is cheaper to replace the overhead system once every 10 years or so than to put the system underground.
Don

A club I belong to had 5 or 6 outages due to failures of an UG cable over a period of just about 3 months before the utility finally replaced it.

On top of replacing the UG cable, they also brought in a feeder from an above ground pole on the property, so we know have two feeds coming into our transformer.

They told us that the replacement of the UG cable had been in their wish list for a number of years but they never got capital funding for it because the utility has to fund capital improvements itself, while the state figures repairs into operating costs.

 

[robbietan]

one business district provided capital so that their power lines are all underground. result? no worries over storms, minimal sags (if ever) and no 'unsightly overhead wires' marring their cityscape.

 

[wirenut1980]

power is a commodity

power is a commodity

Although it would be nice to have everything installed underground, the expense to do that is just too great. And with more utilities becoming investor-owned, they are being treated more and more like a business, with a right/duty to make a profit (although only a certain small percentage profit regulated by the state and FERC). Utilities are responsible for supplying electricity to their customers with rules on the quality of the product they are supplying. If someone wants power, it can be provided overhead, but if the customer wants it to be underground, that is above and beyond the minimum requirements to deliver power. Therefore, it is the customers responsibility to pay the difference. This is so that the increase in cost is not spread out to all ratepayers, because everyone does not benefit.

You wouldn't walk into a Ferrari dealer and demand to pay the same price as for a Yugo. Both cars will drive, but one is significantly better than the other.

Also, for a lineman, it is much easier to troubleshoot an overhead line than it is for an underground.

I do see almost all distribution lines being installed underground eventually.

 

[mattsilkwood]

you can justify the cost when you take in to account the money saved in repairs. once lines are in the ground you dont have to mess with them anymore. here where i live its mandatory for all new service feeds to be ug
and even in the smaller towns where there is no code i wont string overhead.
i tell them to hire someone else.

 

[beanland]

UG by POCO

UG by POCO

Underground power systems cost 10x overhead to install. If you are willing for your power rates to increase to pay for UG, then we can all have UG. Most people are not willing. Especially if you want to convert existing OH to UG.

UG power systems are not immune to problems. The can take lightning hits, but less than OH. They can be hit be cars. They are damaged by flooding if the water covers the transformer. The wire and connections are safe.

It is really, just $$.

 

[e150club]

funny thing happend in my dads n'hood his house was built in 1966along with4 other houses since then about 100 homes built. mostly in the late 70s. last summer he was having blinking lights long story short i found no prob. we had a few days of rain it got worse finaly he called said half house out. lost a leg at the pocos end i called utility they came found a short on his lawn fixed it great. more rain he lost a leg again so did his across the street n,bor they ended up tearing up lawns and street half way up the block to put new feeds to both homes. wire was copper lasted 40 years. wonder if the whole n'hood wil get torn up in next 10 years (sorry this is so long)

 

[hillbilly]

A local utility around here used to supply and install the under ground wire for free, you dug the trench (supplied the conduit if necessary) and covered it up.
Now...they have a $350 minimum plus 7$ per foot for furnishing the cable and hooking it up. The customer still does the trenching, supplies the conduit and covers it up.
I had words with the utility engineer and he indicated to me that the utility is trying to steer new customers away from buried services.
It has something to do with the rocky terrain, number of cable failures and cost to repair.
It may be a regional thing as there is a lot of rock around here in the mountains.
In my opinion, the biggest problem with buried services is the lack of attention to details when installing and covering the cable.
Things like using a little more cable (and conduit) to form "S" loops in the trench which allows the cable to move with the earth and not be pulled in two, and covering the cable with loose dirt for a few inches depth before using a back hoe to push the rest of the dirt (and rocks) into the trench.
Conduit (my choice is PVC) is cheap insurance and always a good idea, although not always required by code.
Just like everything else, if you install it correctly, it's good for the "long haul".
I know from talking to the linesmen that they would much rather service (or repair) overhead.
Another thing, overhead service is provided free of charge.
Just a opinion
steve

 

[tom baker]

Seattle area (known for trees) got slammed before christmas with major windstorm. Power outages were from falling trees.
Don is correct, its far cheaper to install O/H then UG. However our POCO used to do direct bury, but now is only installing primary in conduit.
The UG primary I know of is 12.5KV. Whats the feasibility for higher voltages UG such as 112.5 kV?
Most of our outages were from the 112.5 KV transmission lines being knocked out.
The only people that were happy were the generator manufacturers.

 

[jtester]

Seattle area (known for trees) got slammed before christmas with major windstorm. Power outages were from falling trees.
Don is correct, its far cheaper to install O/H then UG. However our POCO used to do direct bury, but now is only installing primary in conduit.
The UG primary I know of is 12.5KV. Whats the feasibility for higher voltages UG such as 112.5 kV?
Most of our outages were from the 112.5 KV transmission lines being knocked out.
The only people that were happy were the generator manufacturers.

Where previous posters have indicated that UG distribution costs up to 10X overhead, UG transmission costs many times that. Only in the most populated of locations is UG transmission remotely feasable, and then for short distances.

Jim T

 

[beanland]

Ug = 10, Oh = 1

Ug = 10, Oh = 1

The big reason that lines are not underground is cost. In new construction, underground can cost 10x overhead. For retrofit that includes going down paved streets, avoiding water, trees, Aunt Bessie's garden, sewer, gas, phone, CATV, fiber optic, etc. the cost is even higher. If every homeowner was willing to pay 25-50k, the utilities would UG. In some cities, groups of people ban together to create LID (local improvement districts) and pay (through a special property tax assessment) to have the lines undergrounded.