I was wondering if anyone else has encountered a siemens panel with a smoked bus? I am talking about the residental style with the snap in type breakers. In the last year I have changed 3, all with burnt up buses. Two were in dealerships with a high continuous load but not exceding 125% of the main. Another in a resurant, this one even had a copper bus. I was wondering if there was a certain load or guidline on when to install a bolt on compared to a snap on. And also what are the individual fins on the bus rated at? Any info would be good. Any body run into this with any other brands? P.S. the one in the resturant had 3 2-poles, two 30a and one 2-pole 20 all of which were staggered nicely.
burnt up buses
- Thread starter robert
- Start date
- Status
cm
Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: burnt up buses
Load centers [residental panels] should not be allowed in commercial buildings dealerships,restaurants medical offices etc we have replaced a lot of loadcenters in commercial establishments,semans and murray seem to be a problem on flourscent and hid lites
Load centers [residental panels] should not be allowed in commercial buildings dealerships,restaurants medical offices etc we have replaced a lot of loadcenters in commercial establishments,semans and murray seem to be a problem on flourscent and hid lites
james wuebker
Senior Member
- Location
- Iowa
Re: burnt up buses
Robert, I've seen a few of these. The thing that I found was the wires from the meter to the main were all loose creating high currents. You say that the continous loads was not over 125% of the main. Maybe I'm not understanding everything but if it is a continous load, you should not be over 80% of the main. Let's say a 200 Amp main. You shouldn't be drawing over 160 amps on the continous load. Continous load is something running for more than 3 hrs.. I believe this is a good start on this topic. You'll have alot more good answers from other people soon. Bye now
Robert, I've seen a few of these. The thing that I found was the wires from the meter to the main were all loose creating high currents. You say that the continous loads was not over 125% of the main. Maybe I'm not understanding everything but if it is a continous load, you should not be over 80% of the main. Let's say a 200 Amp main. You shouldn't be drawing over 160 amps on the continous load. Continous load is something running for more than 3 hrs.. I believe this is a good start on this topic. You'll have alot more good answers from other people soon. Bye now
charlie tuna
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: burnt up buses
loadcenters are really designed for residential or "fixed" light electrical loads. resturants and dealerships do not fit this catigory. pay me now, or pay me later - is the saying!! the problem you discribed has little to do with "full load" but individual branch circuit load that is carried out to the circuit breakers thru the aluminum bus. consider the original installation costs--loadcenter vs panelboard - labor is near the same!! if the owners of either of these business establishments had a choise - they would have selected the panelboard if they knew the advantage. how much electricity was wasted before the bus failed - a poor connection on a twenty amp branch circuit can cost as much as $200. a year!!! last weekend i got caught answering an emergency service call to one of my customer's employee's home at 9:00pm. it was caused by selection of a substandard loadcenter on a $650,000. house! do you think the owner would object to an addition $300.00 for selection of decent electrical panels?????? but you know--"every penny counts"!
loadcenters are really designed for residential or "fixed" light electrical loads. resturants and dealerships do not fit this catigory. pay me now, or pay me later - is the saying!! the problem you discribed has little to do with "full load" but individual branch circuit load that is carried out to the circuit breakers thru the aluminum bus. consider the original installation costs--loadcenter vs panelboard - labor is near the same!! if the owners of either of these business establishments had a choise - they would have selected the panelboard if they knew the advantage. how much electricity was wasted before the bus failed - a poor connection on a twenty amp branch circuit can cost as much as $200. a year!!! last weekend i got caught answering an emergency service call to one of my customer's employee's home at 9:00pm. it was caused by selection of a substandard loadcenter on a $650,000. house! do you think the owner would object to an addition $300.00 for selection of decent electrical panels?????? but you know--"every penny counts"!
Re: burnt up buses
Charlie, the truth be known, the owner probably did pay for a panelboard. The houses of this size I have been involved with were solely contracted to the GC. They usually solicit value engineering to the minimum and then never reduce their price to the customer.
"Disclamer"
I have dealt with many honest GC's
Roger
Charlie, the truth be known, the owner probably did pay for a panelboard. The houses of this size I have been involved with were solely contracted to the GC. They usually solicit value engineering to the minimum and then never reduce their price to the customer.
"Disclamer"
I have dealt with many honest GC's
Roger
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: burnt up buses
Our local suplyer stocks the alu buss ITE's and we had such a problem with them we had to go else where they told us they changed to copper buss and again we started to have problems when we took a better look we found that the buss was just copper plated so then they did ordered copper one and we never had a problem. but I did find that if you use an anti oxident compound on the breaker before installing it it does stop the problem. as far as it being listed for this perpose I dont have a clue. but it works
Our local suplyer stocks the alu buss ITE's and we had such a problem with them we had to go else where they told us they changed to copper buss and again we started to have problems when we took a better look we found that the buss was just copper plated so then they did ordered copper one and we never had a problem. but I did find that if you use an anti oxident compound on the breaker before installing it it does stop the problem. as far as it being listed for this perpose I dont have a clue. but it works
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: burnt up buses
I've seen quite a few siemens busbars burned up. Some were in commercial applications and some in mobile homes. I think they are junk. The problem with these brands is the breakers do not make good connection to the buss. In Wayne's case, the anti-ox. probably helps with the arcing in which the aluminum buss doesn't take the heat as well as the copper buss. But in time the copper buss will fail also where there is a loose connection. A better fix would probably be to squeese the tabs together so they make a tighter connection. I'd rather pay the extra money and get a better quality loadcenter. I have found this with the GE's also. There is a contractor here that has installed these brands of loadcenters in stripmalls, autocenters, a detail shop, etc. We've gotten called numerous times to repair them. I have a great picture of a challener breaker and panel buss that we repaired recently, but I don't have a way to upload it.
I've seen quite a few siemens busbars burned up. Some were in commercial applications and some in mobile homes. I think they are junk. The problem with these brands is the breakers do not make good connection to the buss. In Wayne's case, the anti-ox. probably helps with the arcing in which the aluminum buss doesn't take the heat as well as the copper buss. But in time the copper buss will fail also where there is a loose connection. A better fix would probably be to squeese the tabs together so they make a tighter connection. I'd rather pay the extra money and get a better quality loadcenter. I have found this with the GE's also. There is a contractor here that has installed these brands of loadcenters in stripmalls, autocenters, a detail shop, etc. We've gotten called numerous times to repair them. I have a great picture of a challener breaker and panel buss that we repaired recently, but I don't have a way to upload it.
james wuebker
Senior Member
- Location
- Iowa
Re: burnt up buses
I do agree with Luke. The breakers in these types of panels doesn't lock in very well. A few calls I had I could hear the breakers sing because of a bad connection on the buss bars. I still use only the SD QO series most of the time. Alittle more money will be less money in the long run.
I do agree with Luke. The breakers in these types of panels doesn't lock in very well. A few calls I had I could hear the breakers sing because of a bad connection on the buss bars. I still use only the SD QO series most of the time. Alittle more money will be less money in the long run.
Re: burnt up buses
Thanks for catching me on that james. 80% is what i ment to say, but sometimes with all those facts in your head it doesn't come out right. It sounds like the boys at siemens need to get back to the drawing board. I do on the other hand swear by the trip characteristics of a siemens breaker, i've never had them let me down. I've seen other brands that you could weld with. Anyway thanks for the input.
Thanks for catching me on that james. 80% is what i ment to say, but sometimes with all those facts in your head it doesn't come out right. It sounds like the boys at siemens need to get back to the drawing board. I do on the other hand swear by the trip characteristics of a siemens breaker, i've never had them let me down. I've seen other brands that you could weld with. Anyway thanks for the input.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: burnt up buses
The better solution is to use a compound that has been tested and evaluated for the use to prevent corrosion. Additionally, it will allow the stabs to slide onto the bus more easily.
Todd, I have a real problem with changing the stabs. If the breakers were tested with the bus at the tension set by the factory, squeezing them together would void the listing and possibly ruin the tension in the long haul. If you have been doing that, you may be the problem instead of the breakers.
The better solution is to use a compound that has been tested and evaluated for the use to prevent corrosion. Additionally, it will allow the stabs to slide onto the bus more easily.
paul
Senior Member
- Location
- Snohomish, WA
Re: burnt up buses
Well damn. I just did a service change for a close friend and put in a Siemans copper bus load center. Now I'm hearing that they're junk. Well it's gotta be better than the Zinsco I took out.
Well damn. I just did a service change for a close friend and put in a Siemans copper bus load center. Now I'm hearing that they're junk. Well it's gotta be better than the Zinsco I took out.
cm
Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: burnt up buses
Paul I changed a zinsco aluminum buss panel last week about circ 1968 that the buss burnt completley off where a breaker plugged on it and there was not any apperant moisture in the panel.Thats the first one Ive seen like that usally they burn around the clip and char the bakeliteback 3/8 in back on the molded case
[ March 09, 2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: cm ]
Paul I changed a zinsco aluminum buss panel last week about circ 1968 that the buss burnt completley off where a breaker plugged on it and there was not any apperant moisture in the panel.Thats the first one Ive seen like that usally they burn around the clip and char the bakeliteback 3/8 in back on the molded case
[ March 09, 2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: cm ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: burnt up buses
I thought you could say it was a violation of 110.3(B) as I thought these where manufactured as residential panels, but that is not what the manufactures say on their web sites.
Square D:
Cutler Hammer
I always believed plug in breakers where residential and bolt-ons for commercial, but it is just a case of pay now for a good quality bolt-on panel or pay later for repairs on a plug in.
Not that I have a bolt-on panel in my house, but dealerships, restaurants, medical offices etc. seem like they should have them.
It always surprises me when I go back to a job that we did with all 21" x 6" commercial tubs and someone comes in afterwards and nipples on a 14" x 3 1/2" load center, then you can really see the difference in quality.
I thought you could say it was a violation of 110.3(B) as I thought these where manufactured as residential panels, but that is not what the manufactures say on their web sites.
Square D:
Square D
Cutler Hammer
Cutler Hammer
I always believed plug in breakers where residential and bolt-ons for commercial, but it is just a case of pay now for a good quality bolt-on panel or pay later for repairs on a plug in.
Not that I have a bolt-on panel in my house, but dealerships, restaurants, medical offices etc. seem like they should have them.
It always surprises me when I go back to a job that we did with all 21" x 6" commercial tubs and someone comes in afterwards and nipples on a 14" x 3 1/2" load center, then you can really see the difference in quality.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: burnt up buses
Charlie, you are right, it probably would void the listing. I don't install Siemens panels, I've never liked them. I was trying to give a scenario that would explain what I think to be wrong with their system and why I've seen alot of their buss bars melted. Todd
Charlie, you are right, it probably would void the listing. I don't install Siemens panels, I've never liked them. I was trying to give a scenario that would explain what I think to be wrong with their system and why I've seen alot of their buss bars melted. Todd
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