Cable guy
- Thread starter kec
- Start date
- Status
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Can't see anything from that small picture.
-Hal
-Hal
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
I was upgrading a service on a house remodel. I had just finished installing the bonding bridge. A phone installer was there and asked if I had a split bolt. I told him if he needed that to bond to the system ground then he could use the bridge and not need a split bolt.
I went to lunch and came back to find.................................................
Yep, the phone guy split bolted his ground right below my bonding bridge!:slaphead:
I went to lunch and came back to find.................................................
Yep, the phone guy split bolted his ground right below my bonding bridge!:slaphead:
Sorry, I thought you could enlarge. He clamped his bonding wire onto the metal pipe clamp around the PVC pipe.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Yeah, cable installers aren't always the brightest bulbs. You can't cite lack of training though, that guy was trained to put a ground clamp on the service conduit and that's exactly what he did. :dunce:
As for the phone guy, old habits die hard.
-Hal
As for the phone guy, old habits die hard.
-Hal
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
There is no requirement that the communications utility use the intersystem bonding point that the electrician is required to install.
Small examples of why telecom installers should not have "baby" exams. Their test questions ask things like What color is the green screw that you connect the ground to? They are taught you need to know chapter 7 and ignore 1-6.
Look at the mess of coax everywhere in the photo. Everyone else would get a fail from the inspector on neatness alone. If we just took anger bits and arbitrarily drilled holes through exterior walls we'd get a big fail on whichever Code applies. And half of them don't even put a box on the other end. Fail, fail, fail.
Perhaps that's the problem. Let them pull permits and see h9w quickly practices change.
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Look at the mess of coax everywhere in the photo. Everyone else would get a fail from the inspector on neatness alone. If we just took anger bits and arbitrarily drilled holes through exterior walls we'd get a big fail on whichever Code applies. And half of them don't even put a box on the other end. Fail, fail, fail.
Perhaps that's the problem. Let them pull permits and see h9w quickly practices change.
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So you are saying they are not required to follow the NEC.
800.100,810.21,820.100,830.100 uses the words "shall be" Then 90.5 must apply.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Keep in mind that cable and to a certain extent telecom installers are often independent contractors working for subcontractors to the cable or telephone company. They get paid by the piece, meaning that they get a fixed amount per install no matter how long it takes them or how difficult it might be or how long it takes to get there. And as you can guess, the pay per install isn't great. The only way to make any money is to do as many installs as possible per day. So there is no incentive for them to do anything but the quickest and easiest way possible so they can move on to the next job.
If you think that this should change and the cable companies should hire and have their own highly trained installers and pay them a decent wage- did you look at your cable bill lately? I don't know about you, but I pay more for pretty much basic cable than I pay for electric. And at least I find electric useful.
-Hal
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Except the telecom utilities are not under the scope of the NEC. NEC does not apply until the customer side of the demark.
Same as for service drops, NEC does not apply ahead of the service point.
See 90.4 and the IN at the end.
We install the Intersystem Bond to make it more likely the installer will use it.
Of course its the electrician who pulls a permit and would get the violation if the intersystem bond is not installed.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
We actually saw an Intersystem bonding bar that was used. I think the one and only since day one.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
That isn't what 90.2 says.
It says that 'not covered' includes 'installations of communications equipment under the exclusive control of of communications utilities located outdoors or in building spaces used exclusively for such installations'.
Note that it says 'equipment' and not cables or conductors. (The section that applies to electrical utilities contains no such specificity.) 800 contains requirements for cables and conductors.
Also in my experience the grounding conductor usually comes from the point of demarcation.
Also the point where they land their grounding conductor isn't typically under their exclusive control.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
That is not what 90.2(B)(4) says.
That's not what NEC says.
In 30 CFR 1910.269 Annex A OSHA has clearly laid it out that for electric utilities where the equipment is part of the distribution system, distribution rules (NESC for utilities) applies. When it is a utilization system such as a receptacle in a substation, .subchapter S (NEC) applies. When it's both, both sets of rules apply. The same is true at a residence which is 100% utilization. NEC is quite clear on this. At least in North Carolina telecommunication contractor licensing uses a test on the NEC. So NEC applies not only because Article 90 says it does but because state law says it does.
I don't care how the utility pays their subs. They are subject to the same rules as the utility. If I'm a sub that does not give me permission to do crappy work either. I have made a cable contractor (Comcast) come back out and redo it. One call to the local Code official would fix these issues.
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hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Hey, I'm not saying I don't agree with you 100% but if an AHJ had to inspect every cable, telephone or sat install there wouldn't be enough inspectors in the state or time in a year to do it. So I really don't think they even care. They have bigger fish to fry.
-Hal
-Hal
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Oh, you just made it seem important. It thought we were only debating how much we electricians are entitled to roll our eyes at the cable guy. :lol:
We install the bonding bridge for them, not us but if we don't then we will get a call from the AHJ
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
In Washington our AHJ does not issue permits for telecom and they don't inspect. I just had fiber optic installed with a optical network interface in the basement (Art 840 install), and no permit. Our electrical rules have two pages on communications circuits, most of which come from the Code of Federal Regulations.
Here are part of the rules in 296-46B
(1) All telecommunications installations on an end-user's property, beyond the end-user's telecommunications
network demarcation point, made by a telecommunications service provider, both inside and outside of a building
or structure, must conform to all licensing, certification, installation, permitting, and inspection requirements
described in chapter 19.28 RCW and this chapter
Beyond the end users its subject to our electrical rules and ahead of the demark its not.
This rule refers to 19.28, which are the electrical laws...
So no permits, no inspections and as pointed out, the utilities are exempt from the NEC.
Here are part of the rules in 296-46B
(1) All telecommunications installations on an end-user's property, beyond the end-user's telecommunications
network demarcation point, made by a telecommunications service provider, both inside and outside of a building
or structure, must conform to all licensing, certification, installation, permitting, and inspection requirements
described in chapter 19.28 RCW and this chapter
Beyond the end users its subject to our electrical rules and ahead of the demark its not.
This rule refers to 19.28, which are the electrical laws...
So no permits, no inspections and as pointed out, the utilities are exempt from the NEC.
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- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
On the lighter side, I am pretty sure this picture is at Mike Holts house...he had all the best surge protection possible, but kept loosing equipment (Central Florida, lightning). Went out side and dug around, found the ground rod from the cable was not connected to the cable ground. If not Mikes house, its an example of why an intersystem bond is needed.
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