California Certification Enforcement

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rexowner

Senior Member
Location
San Jose, CA
This is a real issue.

Unfortunately, the linked web site has multiple grammatical
and logical errors, so it isn't all that clear what is being
proposed.

Solving this is probably a full-time (political) job, not
likely to be done by anyone working for a living.

IMO this is on the right track, but it's not likely to
happen.
 

e57

Senior Member
This is a real issue.

Unfortunately, the linked web site has multiple grammatical
and logical errors, so it isn't all that clear what is being
proposed.

Solving this is probably a full-time (political) job, not
likely to be done by anyone working for a living.

IMO this is on the right track, but it's not likely to
happen.
Yeah gotta work on that grammer - the problem with time is I might have a lot of it on my hands soon.
 

charlietuna

Senior Member
This certification program is a private individual--what good would his certification be?? Government run certification means very little and is unenforcable in most cases, so how could this be any better?
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
This certification program is a private individual--what good would his certification be?? Government run certification means very little and is unenforcable in most cases, so how could this be any better?
I don't necessarily like this law. It has a big loop hole. It allows for a General contractor to perform Electrical without certified employees. This is a big one for me.


I don't see how this type of certification is meaningless and unenforceable. In most states that require such certification inspectors at the job site can require one to show his/her card. Then initiate a complaint if necessary.

for the employee it makes them responsible for their work. For the Lawful employer this is OK. But for the scrupulous one they can insist on having the employee do substandard work. This could happen quite often in our current economy. It is possible in a rare case it could come back on the Employee and cause problems.

Then there are the certified electricians who think they can go out and work for themselves without a contractors license. In CA. you can take a job up to 500.00 incl. all materials and labor for the entire project. Meaning if the customer remodels a kitchen and the total remodel is 20k . That electrician must work only for wages as the job is over 500.00. This is regardless if the electrical was only 500.00. That's the law!
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Bottom line is that some contractors with clout got the law passed, mostly to promote their own business interests, and now they want to get it enforced.

They spent a lot of their own money on politicians getting it passed and now they want some return on their investment.

The people who are out of luck may have to pony up to the same politicians to get some kind of reprieve.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
What is wrong with enforcement? why have a law that is not enforced?

I personally and seem to be the only one that has a problem with the fact that a General Contractor can do what I cannot . That is unskilled labor installing electrical. I know very few small time General contractors that know electrical well enough. In my experience they know just enough to get into trouble.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
The problem with the law on the enforcement end, is that the state didn't give any authority to the local AHJ's. The only one that has the authority to enforce this law is the CSLB. We also do not enforce state license law, other than we will not issue a permit to someone that does not have a valid contractors license.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
The problem with the law on the enforcement end, is that the state didn't give any authority to the local AHJ's. The only one that has the authority to enforce this law is the CSLB. We also do not enforce state license law, other than we will not issue a permit to someone that does not have a valid contractors license.

l will agree with you on the point that you cannot arrest that person if that is what is meant by enforcement.
You as an inspector have the right to ask for a certificate , and take notes on supervision. You can ask the employer to stop work if not compliant or you will initiate a complaint with the CSLB. It would up to them and thus be the problem of CSLB is the contractor fails to comply. That is the Authority I know you do Have.
 
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e57

Senior Member
The problem with the law on the enforcement end, is that the state didn't give any authority to the local AHJ's. The only one that has the authority to enforce this law is the CSLB. We also do not enforce state license law, other than we will not issue a permit to someone that does not have a valid contractors license.
Here's the deal on enforcement.... This is the new addition to the law as it stands now.

Some Joe Schmoe (any Joe that is) either doesn't like the look of you.... Or may have bid against you.... And say you have one guy who's papers are not in order, or the JW walks off to another job, and some 'Joe" takes note that the Apprenti or Trainee is is plugging away....

Joe Schmoe fills out a form, and sends it to the DAS. Who says well.... That's a violation of 3099.2.....

They then send a refferal to the CSLB who then investigates and finds that it's true.... One guy let his certification lapse, and or you sent a guy to a service call who left green-boy solo....

This all happens in under 60 days..... They yank your license - either suspended or revoked - that is screwed! Not the type of tattletale enforcement I was hoping for.... Even if it's just putting a bad mark on you thats one thing. This is shutting down a whole company. Not a fine - closed! I now of no one who has had this happen as of yet, but the enforcement of this is only 20 days old....

Anyway - I am a lover of self-regulation. If we all got the GC to just change the wording in contracts.... Or not that we need to go that far - but put it in the B&P code to comply with that law - then that takes all the people out of the bidding war who don't follow the law.... They comply and prove it, or they don't get work. It's that way on PW work - so why not?
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
The problem with the law on the enforcement end, is that the state didn't give any authority to the local AHJ's.

That would make all (or most) of the difference. Until the local AHJs are empowered to enforce compliance with this law it's essentially unenforceable. They are the boots on the ground.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Here's the deal on enforcement.... This is the new addition to the law as it stands now.

Some Joe Schmoe (any Joe that is) either doesn't like the look of you.... Or may have bid against you.... And say you have one guy who's papers are not in order, or the JW walks off to another job, and some 'Joe" takes note that the Apprenti or Trainee is is plugging away....

Joe Schmoe fills out a form, and sends it to the DAS. Who says well.... That's a violation of 3099.2.....

They then send a refferal to the CSLB who then investigates and finds that it's true.... One guy let his certification lapse, and or you sent a guy to a service call who left green-boy solo....

This all happens in under 60 days..... They yank your license - either suspended or revoked - that is screwed! Not the type of tattletale enforcement I was hoping for.... Even if it's just putting a bad mark on you thats one thing. This is shutting down a whole company. Not a fine - closed! I now of no one who has had this happen as of yet, but the enforcement of this is only 20 days old....

Anyway - I am a lover of self-regulation. If we all got the GC to just change the wording in contracts.... Or not that we need to go that far - but put it in the B&P code to comply with that law - then that takes all the people out of the bidding war who don't follow the law.... They comply and prove it, or they don't get work. It's that way on PW work - so why not?

I really don't think the CSLB will convict is you loose your employee or if his cert lapsed. The EC could should be on site if that is an issue.

Other states have such rules. I really don't like them but they are here.
how does Oregon and Idaho, Colorado handle enforcement.
I think CA is less restrictive. I remember in Oregon if the EC does not have a registered journeyman he cannot contract. That is unless he himself has a cert. :confused:
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
l will agree with you on the point that you cannot arrest that person if that is what is meant by enforcement.
You as an inspector have the right to ask for a certificate , and take notes on supervision. You can ask the employer to stop work if not compliant or you will initiate a complaint with the CSLB. It would up to them and thus be the problem of CSLB is the contractor fails to comply. That is the Authority I know you do Have.

Please post source of this authority.

We can refer violators to the CSLB, but I've never known that we can act directly on license or certification violations.
 

e57

Senior Member
That would make all (or most) of the difference. Until the local AHJs are empowered to enforce compliance with this law it's essentially unenforceable. They are the boots on the ground.
They (an AHJ) could, anyone could... They just need a company name, a work location and a name or two to check out - for that matter one could probably just make up a name and send it in knowing that it will stir up some bees.... All the complaint form is - a referal to the DAS to get a ball rolling.... The DAS say's yep that names not on this list.... Sends it to the CSLB - who then has to find out if it's true or not?

I really don't think the CSLB will convict is you loose your employee or if his cert lapsed. The EC could should be on site if that is an issue.

See this:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=1066172&postcount=68

The CSLB has never been interested in this law, but there seems to be a changing wind up there. Not sure what to make of it....

I am also not sure what "appropriate action" is? But apparently it is to "include" - yanking your license.... Maybe they might feel it is a 3 strikes deal? :rolleyes:

(h) Commencing July 1, 2009, the following shall constitute
additional grounds for disciplinary proceedings, including suspension
or revocation of the license of a class C-10 electrical contractor
pursuant to Article 7 (commencing with Section 7090) of Chapter 9 of
Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code:

(1) The contractor willfully employs one or more uncertified
persons to perform work as electricians in violation of this section.

(2) The contractor willfully fails to provide the adequate
supervision of uncertified workers required by paragraph (3) of
subdivision (a) of Section 3099.4.

(3) The contractor willfully fails to provide adequate supervision
of apprentices performing work pursuant to subdivision (d).
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Please post source of this authority.

We can refer violators to the CSLB, but I've never known that we can act directly on license or certification violations.

I don't think I said you have Direct Authority.What I said was
"You as an inspector have the right to ask for a certificate , and take notes on supervision. You can ask the employer to stop work if not compliant or you will initiate a complaint with the CSLB. It would up to them and thus be the problem of CSLB is the contractor fails to comply. That is the Authority I know you do Have."

In other words let the illegal contractor know that if he does not comply a refferal will be sent to the CSLB. It's pretty simple. When a Building official makes a complaint to the CSLB I hear they follow up very quickly even in these times of budget short fall. A building official carries a lot more weight in the complaint process I would think than the usual Joe Shmoe.
 
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ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
They (an AHJ) could, anyone could...

I figure the agency that issues the permits would have an advantage somehow. You've already got to have workman's comp on file if you have employees doing the work, maybe they could make sure certified employees are the ones covered.

I really don't know, just throwing it out there.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I figure the agency that issues the permits would have an advantage somehow. You've already got to have workman's comp on file if you have employees doing the work, maybe they could make sure certified employees are the ones covered.

I really don't know, just throwing it out there.

Your'getting too technical.
If you are the inspector all you need to do is ask to see the card from the employee. As far as what ifs. Its the same as if the employer needs to know if a employee driving a company car has and maintains a drivers license as the insurance may have issue with an unlicensed Driver operating a company vehicle.
The law does not say " do not pass go you are immediatly guilty. It says WILLFULL.
 

e57

Senior Member
I figure the agency that issues the permits would have an advantage somehow. You've already got to have workman's comp on file if you have employees doing the work, maybe they could make sure certified employees are the ones covered.

I really don't know, just throwing it out there.
Sure - the AHJ might have more clout, say just as the Pope or President, or on an equal level as an old well respected gray haired old lady would be acceptable as someone you might take the word of. But it (the law) does not say that - it just says "referral" and not anyone specifically required to make the referral... The complaint form is right there on the internet.... If they meant only for the Dali Lama to fill it out, I'm sure they would have not published it openly, and sent him a stack of his very own.... For his holiness to fill out. :roll: :grin:

On the comp' issue... Several years ago I bugged the former director of this fiasco about enforcement and her claim then was that workmens comp companies would enforce this BS law.... But ahhh.... That never happened, I assume because they chuckled and said NOT MY JOB!
 
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