California vs Fed EPA Lead safe Renovator

[e57]

I took my class for the fed EPA renovator course, and I was looking to see if anyone else has taken the class here in CA. Looking to touch base, and see if I got some bunk info in my class.

According to the instructor in my class - who was a little more (looking for the right words) literal, and possibly pretty new to the subject matter - i.e. just started giving these classes....

According to him in California the Lead Check kits aren't approved by the CalEPA - so they can't be used....

Meaning one would either have to get a Certified Lead Inspector, PAY a butt load of money - or go full blown haz-mat - treating the surface as lead paint.

What I'm wondering is he confused? I talked to only one other guy who took this - from another location. And he didn't seem to think that a Certified Lead Inspector was required.... So I'm looking to compare notes - with other people - to see if he's wrong or my instructor was.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I haven't taken the classes or really even followed the whole thing, but and just my take on it. I was president of the local historical society for three years. On several occaisions we had to have building paint tested for lead and flooring and what not tested for asphestos. My guess would be that the comanies that do this, might be putting some pressure on the state to not just let any guy off the street test for lead. To have paint samples taken and a 60 sq ft 80 year old play house midigated was about $1300.

 

[e57]

I guess I'm just not into haz mat suits to cut in a bunch of cans if it is wholey unnecessary (because it wasn't tested) - rather than driving costs up by getting a Certified Lead Inspector at a few hundred (Superceding Fed laws) as opposed to a $5 test that the Fed EPA allows....

 

[cowboyjwc]

I guess I'm just not into haz mat suits to cut in a bunch of cans if it is wholey unnecessary (because it wasn't tested) - rather than driving costs up by getting a Certified Lead Inspector at a few hundred (Superceding Fed laws) as opposed to a $5 test that the Fed EPA allows....

Oh I understand completely. I'm just thinking that if it was that easy to test they would have been selling the kits at Lowes all along.

 

[ike5547]

I took my class for the fed EPA renovator course...

Was it expensive? Did it take a lot of time? Did you have to appear in person, or did they let you pay bail?

 

[e57]

Class $250, Fee $300 - Informative - but I'm still trying to figure out how to approach certain work now - without putting myself at litigious risk...

 

[c2500]

E57....

Does California have their own rules? If so they supercede EPA. You may be in a situation where you have to get a lead inspector involved. I took the class, $595, added it to my RRP license fee $550 as opposed to $300 and can now take the federal test to be "a licensed lead inspector". It may be worth the investment for you....though the state could have additional requirements....as well as fees. If all else fails move to a straight EPA only state.

c2500

 

[e57]

E57....

Does California have their own rules? If so they supercede EPA. You may be in a situation where you have to get a lead inspector involved. I took the class, $595, added it to my RRP license fee $550 as opposed to $300 and can now take the federal test to be "a licensed lead inspector". It may be worth the investment for you....though the state could have additional requirements....as well as fees. If all else fails move to a straight EPA only state.

c2500

No CALEPA is pretty silent - I've attempted to email them but doubt I'll get a response.

My instructor - who was admittingly "new" to the course subject (Brought in as a sub - to a larger company) was saying in CA only a Lead Inspector could do testing - to include that required by the Fed EPA RRP rule... Due to the incompatibility of the previous state 'Abatement' laws, Cal DOSH etc. I'm hoping he was misinformed, and by proxy - misinforming us. But as of yet - I cant find anything, or anyone to confirm or deny this????

 

[goldstar]

I guess I'm just not into haz mat suits to cut in a bunch of cans if it is wholey unnecessary...................

FYI, If you're cutting in a remodel 6" recessed can it will disturb about 28 sq. inches of lead based paint. There are 864 sq. inches in six sq. feet. You can cut in up to 30 recessed cans in a room without having to work lead safe. Once you cut the 31st you'll be in violation. I don't think I can remember a time when I cut in 30 hi-hats in a given room.

 

[c2500]

FYI, If you're cutting in a remodel 6" recessed can it will disturb about 28 sq. inches of lead based paint. There are 864 sq. inches in six sq. feet. You can cut in up to 30 recessed cans in a room without having to work lead safe. Once you cut the 31st you'll be in violation. I don't think I can remember a time when I cut in 30 hi-hats in a given room.

But go back to little Johnny showing up with a high BLL...then you get sued because you did not work lead safe. The standard of care is now lead safe...like it or not. I would not hide behind "I did not disturb 6 sq ft in the room."

c2500

 

[goldstar]

But go back to little Johnny showing up with a high BLL...then you get sued because you did not work lead safe. The standard of care is now lead safe...like it or not. I would not hide behind "I did not disturb 6 sq ft in the room."

I wouldn't be looking to "hide" behind that rule of law and I'm sure law suits like these are going to be brought no matter what. If this is what we're truly headed for we should all plan on retiring now. There's a big difference between working neatly and working lead-safe. You can put down drop cloths and put up plastic sheeting to avoid dust traveling to other parts of a residence and it's quite another thing to have to take classes for $300.00, file with the EPA for another $300.00, enclose the entire room with plastic, have a separate room lined with plastic to put on your haz-mat suit, vacuum up with a HEPA vacuum, damp-mop or Swiffer after you're done, document the entire process and keep it on file for 3 years just to protect your butt.

Think about how much more jobs are going to cost under this law and how much more work you're NOT going to get because homeowners are not going to pay the extra "vig" to get their job done. While you're out there trying to comply with the law, some "undocumented American" will probably wind up with the job. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not scoffing at the law. I'm merely pointing out that there is a certain criteria that has to be met before you are required to comply with this law. If you're cutting in less than 31, 6" hi-hats in a room you are not required to comply.

 

[c2500]

I agree with you to a point....but let me toss this out. You dont have to put on a HAZMAT suit and plastic off the entire room. You simply have to cover the area you are working with 6' of plastic. Forget the drop cloth. The drill you use to cut the hole for the can light needs to be tied to a hepa vac via a dust collection system be it store bought or homemade. You use the same vac when you are down to clean up the area. It may take an extra 30 minutes...maybe less. Bear in mind 1 gram of lead dust contaminates a whole house. (A pack of sugar or sweet n low at you favorite eating establishment is one gram)

A minor modification to your procedures can provide you with an excellent defense in a lawsuit. One thing to also remember is that lead levels will vary....lead being heavy had a tendency to settle to the botom of the container. If the paint was not stirred consistently, the bottom of the can paint would have much higher lead concentrations. Imagine cutting an old work box or two into a heavier lead level area without dust collection.

Yes, there will be plenty of people operating non lead safe. I watched it today when some windows were being installed....But wouldn't you prefer to have some level of protection between you and a lawsuit? Those lead test kits are cheap. I don't want to scare homeowners, but i suspect most would rather have the contractor warn them. Those that don't probably would not call you anyway and prefer unlicensed help....cause it is cheaper. Once the word really begins travel, I suspect it could be a business boom as opposed to a bust. There are plenty of young moms living in pre 78 dwellings.


c2500

 

[goldstar]

You dont have to put on a HAZMAT suit and plastic off the entire room. You simply have to cover the area you are working with 6' of plastic. Forget the drop cloth.

Maybe I went a little overboard with the HAZMAT suit reference but you will have to put plastic on all walls to prevent dust from traveling throughout the house. You'll also have to use plastic drop cloths on the floor.

The drill you use to cut the hole for the can light needs to be tied to a hepa vac via a dust collection system be it store bought or homemade. You use the same vac when you are down to clean up the area. It may take an extra 30 minutes...maybe less.

I'm not sure where you got this from but from what I've been lead to believe you'll have to purchase a state of the art HEPA vacuum that has several levels of air cleaners before it dumps air back into the room. BTW, how do you "tie" a drill into this system ?

A minor modification to your procedures can provide you with an excellent defense in a lawsuit.

Don't bet on it. The EPA is specific in pointing out that the fines for not being lead-safe certified and not following their procedures to the T will start at $36,500.00/day. That's enough to scare the crap out of any contractor.

Yes, there will be plenty of people operating non lead safe. I watched it today when some windows were being installed....But wouldn't you prefer to have some level of protection between you and a lawsuit?

The problem, it seems, is that you will no longer be able to just be a nice guy and warn the homeowner or put up a plastic drop cloth and believe you're doing the right thing. A lawsuit is a lawsuit and if they're out to nail you they will.

Those lead test kits are cheap. Once the word really begins travel, I suspect it could be a business boom as opposed to a bust. There are plenty of young moms living in pre 78 dwellings.

I hope you're right about this but I'm not so optimistic. It's hard enough trying to make a buck doing electrical work but now we'll have to vacuum and mop floors, document that portion of the job and keep it on file for 3 years.

 

[e57]

Think about how much more jobs are going to cost under this law and how much more work you're NOT going to get because homeowners are not going to pay the extra "vig" to get their job done. While you're out there trying to comply with the law, some "undocumented American" will probably wind up with the job. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not scoffing at the law. I'm merely pointing out that there is a certain criteria that has to be met before you are required to comply with this law. If you're cutting in less than 31, 6" hi-hats in a room you are not required to comply.

Now think about it this way - I see this as one of those "legal check-box" laws.... So - EPA certified guy walks in, assess job as pre-78, gets card signed saying the job needs to be done this way, or that way - it doesn't matter really... He's made an assessment, and got something signed.... If it requires the whole 9 yards - he prices it that way... If it doesn't - it doesn't.

The same situation the non-EPA guy walks in - throws a price at it if it needs the whole 9 or not - same price... Technically - HE's NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO PRICE IT, IF IT DOES NEED THE WHOLE NINE.... And 1/2 way through it - if and when he gets it, the EPA doesn't know how far he's gone through what he plans to open - but if it's over that amount he's screwed, Alternatively, post de facto the EPA will now need to prove he did not open that much - or does that contractor???? If brought to court down the line, for say some civil suit - about the amount of dust created in a house that the parents now see as a lead hazard because the lawyer told them... They go get it tested... If it has lead - it is now 'likely' and drop in Johnny's IQ is due to some dust in the house caused by construction... They'll ask.... Wheres the documentation, were "lead safety practices" used? Obviously not... In fact the guy who did the work may not have been even qualified to know what that is.... He certainly was not certified for that... And has no documentation of what he did or did not do....

The EPA certified guy does... He has a card on file, with a signature of the owner saying this or that... The Owner was educated - he made a decision... He signed something... If it was more cutting than the rules allow - he knew something should have been followed. and the EPA certified guy has documentation of it, and who was there, who did it, the testing, and the clean-up... IF ANY WERE REQUIRED....

Who is now MORE protected when 1-800-LAW-SUIT comes a calling? IMO it is the guy with the boxes all checked...

Even if it is a card saying 'I got no kids, and my wife ain't knocked up & don't plan to be - and I don't have to pay extra for some silly EPA rule' Or 'this is less than the required amount of cutting...' The signature of the twerp looking to sue you alone - is a legal condom.... :roll:

Is the non-EPA certified firm even "qualified" to determine if he can cut anything, or how much, or know what to do if it is? I DO NOT know the answer, but I bet some lawyer will ask just that sooner or later in front of a judge and jury. :roll: Is he "qualified" to work in any pre-78 home? Have his 'boxes' been checked???

 

[c2500]

Maybe I went a little overboard with the HAZMAT suit reference but you will have to put plastic on all walls to prevent dust from traveling throughout the house. You'll also have to use plastic drop cloths on the floor. I'm not sure where you got this from but from what I've been lead to believe you'll have to purchase a state of the art HEPA vacuum that has several levels of air cleaners before it dumps air back into the room. BTW, how do you "tie" a drill into this system ?Don't bet on it. The EPA is specific in pointing out that the fines for not being lead-safe certified and not following their procedures to the T will start at $36,500.00/day. That's enough to scare the crap out of any contractor.
The problem, it seems, is that you will no longer be able to just be a nice guy and warn the homeowner or put up a plastic drop cloth and believe you're doing the right thing. A lawsuit is a lawsuit and if they're out to nail you they will.I hope you're right about this but I'm not so optimistic. It's hard enough trying to make a buck doing electrical work but now we'll have to vacuum and mop floors, document that portion of the job and keep it on file for 3 years.

Ok...I am not sure how to split quotes up so here goes...

The fine is $32,500.

You tie a drill in with a cone or other shroud that allows the drill to operate while dust is collected via a dust collection system. This is not state of the art, they have been around a while. Check out what festool or fein offers. The video we were shown in class showed a rubber, almost plunger looking gizmo. I dropped $850 for a festool setup. The reason a "dust collector is used instead of a wed/dry vac with a HEPA filter is the dust collector has a rubber seal, forcing all of the air into the Hepa filter to collect the dust before expelling it back into the room.

You use the plastic on the floor and or walls, then clean 2 feet past where the plastic was. It is not that big of a deal. I suspect if you are concerned about the work you do, you are already practicing clean workmanship....you just take it a bit farther. You vacuum the ceiling then wet wipe it.

Tis is a great way to stand apart from the guys who are not legal. The fact remains the law is here and we have to deal with it. It is no different than electricians vs unlicensed people.

As for lawsuits...they happen. From the multiple instructors I had dealings with, you definitely want to be on the right side of the law with this stuff. The liability is there if you chose not to operate lead safe. If you comply with the law, you have a much stronger defense because you practiced the "standard of care" that any electrician that was RRP certified would have done. You could still lose, but your credibility just went up several notched in the court room.

I once had to testify in a divorce hearing. The guy had rewired a condo with no permits. Several things did not work, presumably lost in the walls. I tried tracing wires and then I lost the tracer signal. Anyway, he worked for an EC contracting firm as an estimator. As he was a former neighbor, I know he was drunk most of the time he worked. Short of the long, I said what he did was not legal, no permits were pulled, and the workmanship was shoddy at best. His attorney tried to pick me apart and could not. After I left another guy was brought in and said my old neighbor did great electrical work at his home. The attorney for the side I testified for said what does it matter? He had no license to do the work. That destroyed anything the guy could testify to, and the other guy was immediately excused. Moral here...be on the right side of the law.

c2500

 

[GUNNING]

OOOOooooo Magic dust!

OOOOooooo Magic dust!

Its not that much more work. It makes the customer feel good. It keeps your help (or you or your kids or your helps kids ) from turning into sick drooling zombies.
All you have to do is make an effort. Wipe up and vacuum up after yourself. Put some plastic instead of a sheet down when you cut in a hole. Vacuum and wipe up after yourself. Leave a book and take the sign in sheet. Adds time to the job sure, but we get to charge for it. Alot, casue its hazmat. So you put on the bunny suit costume. Its part of the drama to charge more.
The cat ladies house is going to be a problem with that nice clean 8x8 in the living room.
AND we dont have to bother if there are no kids, No pregnant women, NO federal money or less than 6 square feet inside or 20 square feet outside.
Its still a good practice, It makes for good return customers.
If you dont like them, sprinkle some dust on the way out. Send them a bill again in two weeks. They will have forgoten they paid you.

 

[c2500]

If you dont like them, sprinkle some dust on the way out. Send them a bill again in two weeks. They will have forgoten they paid you.

Is that the lead dust....or the lead free dust?:grin: One job I went too...I could have cut holes for hours with no containment and never hit the "existing" dust level.

c2500

 

[jsmalone1]

Here, most of us simply will not work on any of the older homes, less repair, service call, service change, etc. It's nonsense in my opinion and as a group, many many contractors of all types here simply refuse to comply!

 

[MRBILL0]

I AM A GENERAL CONTRACTOR AND ALSO JUST FINISHED THE EPA RRP TRAINING. MY INSTRUCTOR ALSO SAID LEADCHECK IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN CALIFORNIA DUE TO THE HIGH NUMBER OF FALSE NEGATIVES. WE ARE, THUS, NOT ALLOWED THIS OPTION. I AM CHECKING WITH THE CALEPA TO FIND A SPECIFIC CODE # AND WILL ADVISE IF I CAN FIND IT. BELOW IS A URL FOR A LENGTHY REPORT ON LEADCHECK'S FALSE NEGATIVES DONE BY TWO PhD's FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF ROCHESTER.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2170477/

THE ALTERNATIVE IS TO USE A CERTIFIED INSPECTOR TO COLLECT PAINT CHIPS OR, EVEN BETTER, HAVE ONE SURVEY THE SITE WITH AN XRF GUN (X-RAY FLORESCENCE) THE COST FOR A SFR FROM THE FIRM DOING THE TRAINING RUNS FROM $225 FOR A PARTIAL TO $350 FOR A FULL INTERIOR / EXTERIOR. WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE LIABILITY INVOLVED, IT MAKES NO SENSE TO FUSS ABOUT THIS. THE SAME SAME BE SAID ABOUT FINAL CLEARANCE.

NEXT, I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT WE NEED TO BE CERTIFIED BY THE CALIF DEPT OF HEALTH AND WILL ADVISE.

 

[charlie b]

Mr. Billo, please turn off the ALL CAPS feature on your keyboard. It makes the text hard to read, and is considered by some to be impolite (as if you were SHOUTING at us). Many thanks.