Can a generators resistance be variable to maximize efficiency?

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Noswad4

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[FONT=&quot]Apologies for the lack of detail around the question as I don't posses a lot of background on the subject.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My question is - is it possible for windmills to control speed of the blades and power output by adjusting the load/resistance of the generator? Other applications are also applicable such as CAES.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I understand that power generating windmills adjust their blade pitch to control speed. They also have a gearbox that can adjust the amount of power being generated. In CAES they simply use a control valve to ensure even pressure to the turbo-expander.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]For example in extreme winds the generator would provide more resistance but and create more power per rotation than it would in low winds.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I appreciate any comments.[/FONT]
 
The resistance (or more accurately, the impedance) of a generator is directly related to the LOAD being serviced. To the extent one can manage the load on the generator, once can manage the efficiency of the generator.

For example, if you have a generator feeding both a direct load as well as a battery back up, and the load being serviced is LESS than optimal, then control circuits could be designed to have the generator charge the batteries in a manner to create an optimal overall load (normal load plus charge load). If the normal load being serviced exceeds the optimal generator load, then the control circuits could tap the batteries to fulfill part of the load, placing the generator back at its optimal load output.

Of course, from an overall SYSTEMS optimization, one would also need to factor in the efficiency of the battery charge/discharge cycle as compared to the generator efficiency curve. The battery option would only apply when the generator efficiency curve drops below the charge/discharge curve. Similar trades would be required under other configurations.
 
Thanks for the reply Jpin. That information is helpful.

How would one go about modifying the load/impedance of a generator if it where feeding into the grid?

This goes back to the CAES example with varying input air pressure.
 
Would anyone be able to elaborate on possible ways to modify the load/impedance of a generator that is supplying electricity to the grid? Ideally it would help the generator fall into its most efficient range.
 
181124-1546 EST

I really don't understand any of the posts.

Consider the simplest generator, a permanent magnet DC generator, driven at constant speed. Its internal generated voltage can be assumed as a constant since speed is constant, and we assume magnetic field intensity is a constant ftpm thre permanent magnet field. For simplicity you also assume the internal resistance is a constant. However, with incrrasingh load the resistance will increase from heating.

You have mechanical losses from windage and friction.

Useful electrical power output is terminal voltage*load current. Mechanical input power is distributed between electrical output power + friction losses (a constant) + I^2*Rinternal. Output voltage is a constant - I*Rinternal. Pick some values and run some calculations.

Is maximum efficiency really your goal.

.
 
Sorry I am not clear - it is mostly due to my lack of experience.

Maximum efficiency is not my goal, but certainly a key variable.

My goal is to control the air flow from a CAES system utilizing the generator load instead of having multiple different gears, brakes, and regulators.

Say you your feeding a turbine from a pressurized air system at 500 psi. You wanted that psi to drop to 50 after the turbine (which is connected to the generator). I believe that would be simple enough by correctly sizing the generator and turbine.

Now imagine the feed air varies between 200-500 psi but you want your outlet to remain at 50 psi. Can a turbine/ generator with circuity provide that controlled resistance?
 
why is the discharge pressure so important, and so high? Do you need that fixed 50 psi for another turbine or process?

I would appreciate any links you have, my only experience is with steam turbines, and they would typically exhaust the spent steam into a condenser kept at a near vacuum by way of eductors. Changes in power are controlled solely by the position of a main steam valve that controls how much steam goes into the turbine.

I would think that the load on the generator would dictate the air flow into your turbine. I would also think that any sort of resistive changes to the generator, if possible, would generate heat that has to be dissipated somewhere, and/or waste air.

If your generator is tied to the grid, or even if it's not, you still have to generate 60 hertz or thereabouts, meaning your generator is going to spin at one speed based on the number of poles it has. The load from the grid and or your equipment is going to determine how much power that generator needs to make, and how much airflow is going into its turbine.

I would think if you need a fixed 50 psi on the exhaust side of the turbine it would require some sort of automatically adjustable vane or intake to exhaust (compressor) bypass.
 
181124-2156 EST

Noswad4:

If it is possible to achieve the pressure drop you want with your turbine by adjusting the mechanical load on the turbine, then yes you can do what you want.

The simplest way is with a DC generator and an adjustable load, a dynamometer. This is not an issue of efficiency or changing the resistance of the generator.

If you want to do something with this energy, then more needs to be added to the system in the form of the load on the generator. An AC generator can also be used.

.
 
Thanks for the help all.

JFletcher - can you suggest any reading that might help me better understand generator load and frequency? I assumed that you could speed up or slow down the rotations based on resistance/load. Obviously I have a lot to learn, any help is appreciated.

Gar - you are describing what I am trying to accomplish. By attaching a dynamometer you would put additional load on the generator which would slow down the rotation of the generator?? What would you suggest can be added to the system to capture this lost energy?
 
181124-2364 EST

Noswad4:

You list yourself as an engineer. What kind, and from what school?

Is your question hypothetical, or do you presently really have a turbine coupled to some kind of generator? Or is this a class question?

Assume your turbine can operate at some constant speed with the pressure differential you specified, then you could drive an AC generator thru some mechanical ratio to produce 60 Hz. With electronic coupling or an adjustable transformer you could couple into the power grid and adjust to whatever load you wanted.

I am not sure you can easily control that output pressure. You may have system dynamics problems.

.

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Can a generators resistance be variable to maximize efficiency?

I suspect this is the hint about where to start your inquiry. A normal rotary electrical generator converts mechanical energy into electrical energy that leaves the generator in a circuit that goes to Utilization Equipment for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting or similar purpose.

The greater the electric energy in the circuit to the Utilization Equipment, the more mechanical energy is required to turn the generator.

In the Wikipedia link underlined above, note the discussion of the current in the generator being the source of the force that "resists" the mechanical energy.
 
Thanks for the help all.

JFletcher - can you suggest any reading that might help me better understand generator load and frequency? I assumed that you could speed up or slow down the rotations based on resistance/load. Obviously I have a lot to learn, any help is appreciated.

Gar - you are describing what I am trying to accomplish. By attaching a dynamometer you would put additional load on the generator which would slow down the rotation of the generator?? What would you suggest can be added to the system to capture this lost energy?

If you are feeding into the grid that determines the frequencies/speed. An AVR, as mentioned by Russ, can control the electrical output.
 
Thanks for the help all.

JFletcher - can you suggest any reading that might help me better understand generator load and frequency? I assumed that you could speed up or slow down the rotations based on resistance/load. Obviously I have a lot to learn, any help is appreciated.

Gar - you are describing what I am trying to accomplish. By attaching a dynamometer you would put additional load on the generator which would slow down the rotation of the generator?? What would you suggest can be added to the system to capture this lost energy?

Noswad4, you need to more clearly define your system. I am not sure if you were talking about one piece of equipment or multiple types of systems. Do you have a windmill connected to an air turbine connected to a gearbox connected to a generator? Is that generating AC or DC? How many generators are we talkin about?

on the generator side of things, in the most basic sense you are going to generate as much power as your loads demand.

The amount of power produced by the turbine (your prime mover) is going to be largely dependent on the pressure drop across its blades. When the air is provided by CAES, your turbine intake pressure is going to decrease as that stored air is used up.

I asked about the 50 psi discharge or exhaust pressure because, as mentioned above, the power your turbine produces largely depends on the pressure drop across the blades. You may have little to no practical control over the demand on the grid and thus the power your generator needs to make. When running on compressed air, you also have little control over that variable. Varying the exhaust pressure of your turbine is one way to achieve the desired power it needs to produce

The amount of power your prime mover produces has to equal that of the demand on the generator, plus any inefficiencies and system losses. While you can vary certain parameters within the generator, if the loads on it are, say, 10 kilowatts, your prime mover is going to need to produce the same amount of power.

Coupling this with a windmill changes a few things, however your generator and turbine work the same.

If you wish to increase efficiency, or capture lost energy, or store more potential energy, there are many schemes employed to do this. Your stored air, there are heating systems to increase its energy. Battery banks are a way to store energy until it is needed.

A higher pressure drop across your turbine would probably be the easiest to implement, at least in theory. By your numbers, if your turbine can withstand a 500 PSI intake pressure, and a 50 psi discharge pressure, it can withstand a 450 psi delta. When your air pressure is down to 200 psi, if your discharge pressure was effectively 0, or atmospheric at 14.7 PSI at sea level, you now have a 185 to 200 psi delta across the blades instead of 150. In theory, this could increase turbine efficiency by 20 to 30%.

In practice however, turbines and windmills are not designed by people like me, they are designed by top level engineers at companies like Siemens that make a heck of a lot more cash than I do.

Hope that helps some. And welcome to the Forum.
 
Gar - I am a chemical engineer by training. Unfortunately, I never really took a dive into much electrical engineering.

Russ/Besoeker - I will have to do more reading on an ARV. Sounds like it could be a possible solution. If I wanted to control output pressure of the system could I have the ARV allow more or less voltage to the grid? This would in turn increase/decrease the resistance of the generator?

JFletcher - The system I am theoretically proposing is a CAES system with an additional control. The CAES system would be fed from compressed air storage that has high pressure when full and gradually decreases in pressure as air is "spent". The wrench I am throwing into this is that I would like to have the ability to control the outlet pressure. This wouldn't be too much of an issue if the inlet pressure was static. It could easily be accomplished with some regulators and bypass. What I am asking is if there is some way to vary the load on the generator (which is feeding into the grid) so that it can control the resistance of the turbine (that the generator is coupled to) and in turn control air flow/ pressure.

This is all theoretical and I am open to any suggestions. I have no firm pressure drop currently, but definitely want to try and control it.
 
181126-0838 EST

Noswad4:

Instead of the word "resistance" I would prefer that you used something like "torque" or more completely "torque load on the turbine".

You have a slowly changing pressure on the input side. I would like to see 1800 RPM somehow obtained from the turbine. Then mechanically drive a synchronous motor/generator from that 1800 RPM. Use a pressure sensor on the turbine output (exhaust) thru an electronic control to control electrical excitation to the alternator (synchronous motor/generator) to adjust the torque load on the turbine. The alternator automatically synchronizes to the AC 60 Hz line.

If the constant 1800 RPM is not feasible, then use a DC generator to a DC to AC inverter.

.
 
deleted until I can get approval[/QUOTE]

Since when does peer review requires approval by management.

Impartial review is usually performed by reasonably qualified members of a particular discipline to promote quality of opinions and or whether they are valid or questionable.

It is by no means designed to prevent people in elucidating their valid or invalid research. It is supposed to be visible to readers who are members of peer reviewers.

Open peer review is conducted by those who know the subject. . . not by management.

Management is not a repertoire of knowledge. . . it is not omnipotent.

Unless your posts are risque, abusive (per forum rules) and outside the bounds of good behavior. . . the site's aim to disseminate knowledge would be diminished if suppressed for no good reason.

BTW:
(I don't think you would engage in any of the above mentioned disorderly ethos. . . would you?) :roll:
 
When I initially look up CAES, it was for some small specialty systems like mining equipment. I have since looked it up as it applies to power distribution.

What is the source of your compressed air? The diagrams I looked at showed a grid driven compressor running at off peak hours pumping large amounts of air into an underground storage facility, then using that compressed air later when the grid is on peak demand to supply electricity.

If this is your complete cycle, you are basically peak shaving for another public utility that supplies the grid. Using your generators to cover fluctuations in the grid demand is going to be extremely problematic.

How two or more generators share a load is beyond my scope of knowledge, though it should be possible for the main utility to cover this easier than your system.

I also noted that the turbines are two-stage, so varying the discharge pressure is out. And the previously mentioned eductor probably does not work with an air turbine like it does with steam, since it could not create a giant vacuum by condensing steam vapor back into water.

Someone who is more well versed in poco distribution like Forum member mbrooke may be able to weigh in on a varying grid load, or running your air turbine driven generator at a constant, efficient, output.
 
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