Cancelled contract question

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LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
If an already-accepted contract is cancelled after a couple of hours of exploration of the work-site exposes that the work can't be done as proposed (let's say because the ceiling is 1.5" of popcorn-sprayed concrete-like stucco instead of popcorn-sprayed drywall), would it be proper to bill for the time spent?

I'm working on surface-mounted alternatives to installing recessed lighting per the proposal, and the church is considering trying brighter bulbs in existing installed-when-built 10"-square recessed lights, which I offered as a possibility before my proposal was accepted. I hope to get the surface-mount job.

I don't know whether they'd feel compelled to have me do the new surface-mounted idea because they'd have to pay me some money anyway, or resent the idea that I'm trying to get them to feel so compelled*. I don't want to alienate them, nor do I want to feel like I spent time and not get compensated for it.


*I'm not, but then, I am. The new proposal would actually be a little less money than the original. Also, the work is being paid for by a church-goer, and not the person with whom I have been working. Our correspondence is being forwarded to the person paying by my contact. To me the contract is with the church, not the individual.
 
The short answer is that you deserve compensation, and they should recognize that without hesitation.

After that, it's going to be mostly going with your gut, based on your interactions with them up to this point.
 
I spent about 2.5 hours in total, the removal of one cemented-in existing 10"-square recessed light for my head and a flashlight to gain visual access being the majority of the time. Then there was opening another light and the switch, so I could explore the use of the existing conduit between that light and the existing switch, for the purpose of adding a second switch to the switch's 4" box w/ 1-gang plaster ring.

Also, there was a trip to the store to see whether I could find anything with which to make a 6.25" hole in the stucco (there wasn't). Let's not forget wiping down the tables and chairs, and vacuuming the carpet after putting everything back together. And pulling out and putting away the 10' ladder.
 
In that case I would gently explain to them that you had no idea what the ceiling material was until you took out the light. Tell them you will be glad to help with another lighting option if they choose but the time spent on the existing proposal would have to be billed for. Explain what you did and the time spent.
 
If I get the new job, I would have had to do the exact same preliminary "homework" anyway, so I won't ask for anything beyond the new, slightly-lower price. This is only in case they end up not having me do any work at all.
 
LarryFine said:
If I get the new job, I would have had to do the exact same preliminary "homework" anyway, so I won't ask for anything beyond the new, slightly-lower price. This is only in case they end up not having me do any work at all.
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the tract next to mine has two story high roofs. 12/12 slope.

the popcorn is stucco there, as well. the only solution was to
run a floor scraper across it to knock off the points, and
top it with mud. it was a 3.500 sq foot house, and i think it
took like two pallets of hamilton topping mud in 50# boxes.

it was a mess. i put well over 100 can lights in that house...

what i used to cut out holes was a remgrit blade, with a
respirator and good shop vac.

endless amount of holes. endless.
 
LarryFine said:
If I get the new job, I would have had to do the exact same preliminary "homework" anyway, so I won't ask for anything beyond the new, slightly-lower price. This is only in case they end up not having me do any work at all.
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I would suggest that you charge them for the original work and give them a price for the new work and reflect a discount for previous work, if you feel so inclined. That way if they use you then you have your profit, if they don't you got paid for your time.
 
The work you've done up to this point has been helpful TO THEM in choosing the next path for the work to be done. If they use a different electrician, they will be able to provide him with the information that YOU collected. Very unfair to not be paid for that.
 
Strathead said:
I would suggest that you charge them for the original work and give them a price for the new work and reflect a discount for previous work, if you feel so inclined. That way if they use you then you have your profit, if they don't you got paid for your time.
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I haven't done the original work yet, except for the 2.5 hours of exploratory work, so I can't bill for the full contract. I did send an email explaining that I would have to bill for the time I spent per their acceptance of the original proposal if we do not proceed, because it was time I otherwise would not have spent.


MAC702 said:
The work you've done up to this point has been helpful TO THEM in choosing the next path for the work to be done. If they use a different electrician, they will be able to provide him with the information that YOU collected. Very unfair to not be paid for that.
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Agreed, and I would certainly give them the information because they paid for the time it took to amass it . . . presuming they agree to paying me for it.
 
Because, even though I happen to already have one of those, I didn't realize it was rated for stucco. :blink: More importantly, though, as I explained to the customer, if it didn't work, or work well, we'd have a ceiling that needed to be repaired. The whole ceiling is around 20 x 30 feet.

I really don't know if this ceiling is the same thing as the stucco that the stucco the description of the hole-saw mentions. I envision softer exterior stucco on a house applied to chicken wire, which I'm under the impression is not as hard and thick as this ceiling with expanded steel lath.

It took me almost a half hour to break the 10 x 10 recessed housing out of the ceiling, and that was after removing the hardware. I had to force a drywall saw between the can and the ceiling, and it didn't even leave any teeth marks on the edge of the hole. It's as hard as concrete.
 
The customer responded: "Regarding any billable amount, I'll have to speak with the donor. The acceptance of the contract was based on your proposal and inspection. What would the total be for the 2.5 hours?"

Am I screwed by "The acceptance of the contract was based on your proposal and inspection." ? I want to tread lightly, as he says there is other work, but I don't want to give my time away, either.

To me, I started the job, but paused it for the benefit of the customer. He says they're first going to try brighter bulbs in the existing cans, which are not over the desired work space.
 
To be honest Larry, I would have checked the ceiling out first (if I wasn't sure what it was) before writing the proposal. I understand that you you have 2.5 hours in this but I would have worked that (estimating costs) into the contract price. By providing them with a proposal which they accepted then figuring out it can't be done doesn't make you look good. Now you want them to pay for your time which really they got nothing for.

We all make mistakes, I would try and salvage whatever good will you have with these people.

-Hal
 
LarryFine said:
The customer responded: "Regarding any billable amount, I'll have to speak with the donor. The acceptance of the contract was based on your proposal and inspection. What would the total be for the 2.5 hours?"

Am I screwed by "The acceptance of the contract was based on your proposal and inspection." ? I want to tread lightly, as he says there is other work, but I don't want to give my time away, either.

To me, I started the job, but paused it for the benefit of the customer. He says they're first going to try brighter bulbs in the existing cans, which are not over the desired work space.
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They are probably saying, politely, that you had a chance to look at the work area and determine the proper scope so, WTF? On the other hand, we always put in our proposals our assumptions, and said that costs could increase due to "unforeseen and unknowable site conditions." But, it sounds like you have hit on a cheaper solution to the job. Emphasize that in the new proposal, and suggest that there will be no additional charges if they accept the new offer. Just bury that 2.5 hours in the new proposal. If they decide they don't like the new, lower overall price then you'd like to be paid for that 2.5 hours and give them what you'd consider a fair price, as in, if you were a customer faced with their problem and heard that price you'd say, "Gee, that's pretty reasonable." Now I know one man's reasonable is another man's highway robbery, but I think I've conveyed the idea.
 
Look at it from owner perspective - they possibly wanted bids to get a certain completed project - you came in with price and possibly other criteria they liked, now you want to change the rules. As said you had the chance to look at the work and determine proper scope, you must have done that wrong - things happen. That don't mean you can't confront them with the problem and see if you can work something out, but if they are set on what was originally proposed you may have some losses, or at least less income then originally expected.
 
LarryFine said:
If an already-accepted contract is cancelled after a couple of hours of exploration of the work-site exposes that the work can't be done as proposed (let's say because the ceiling is 1.5" of popcorn-sprayed concrete-like stucco instead of popcorn-sprayed drywall), would it be proper to bill for the time spent?

I'm working on surface-mounted alternatives to installing recessed lighting per the proposal, and the church is considering trying brighter bulbs in existing installed-when-built 10"-square recessed lights, which I offered as a possibility before my proposal was accepted. I hope to get the surface-mount job.

I don't know whether they'd feel compelled to have me do the new surface-mounted idea because they'd have to pay me some money anyway, or resent the idea that I'm trying to get them to feel so compelled*. I don't want to alienate them, nor do I want to feel like I spent time and not get compensated for it.


*I'm not, but then, I am. The new proposal would actually be a little less money than the original. Also, the work is being paid for by a church-goer, and not the person with whom I have been working. Our correspondence is being forwarded to the person paying by my contact. To me the contract is with the church, not the individual.
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Who is it that wants the contract cancelled, you or the customer.

If it's the customer that wants to cancel, remembering my business law class, your claim would be for lost profit. If it's you that wants to cancel, the customer's claim could be for your specific performance per the contract (install the lights?).

Whoever signed is probably acting as agent of the property owner, that's your counterparty. Where the money comes from is not really your necessary concern. Legal doctrine aside, the overweighing factor could be the schmoozing and discerning what is in the mind of the counterpartys. If they're all donating their own time and money to the project, they could be looking for someone to meet them halfway (between business and charitable donations or volunteer service).

We would all like to have customers who never look at the bill and never insist on some free work. If you find one, don't tell anyone. You have costs expended and could try to lay your cards on the table, will they cover expenses so far. Their counter offer could be to go forward with the original contract. If they don't want to do that, they want to cancel. Being able to stop before damages have become materially expensive and change course to a wiser and more informed path, has value to the customer. How they may see it is solely in their own minds.
 
gadfly56 said:
Emphasize that in the new proposal, and suggest that there will be no additional charges if they accept the new offer. Just bury that 2.5 hours in the new proposal.
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I did that.

If they decide they don't like the new, lower overall price then you'd like to be paid for that 2.5 hours and give them what you'd consider a fair price, as in, if you were a customer faced with their problem and heard that price you'd say, "Gee, that's pretty reasonable."
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Half of my normal hourly?
 
kwired said:
That don't mean you can't confront them with the problem and see if you can work something out, but if they are set on what was originally proposed you may have some losses, or at least less income then originally expected.
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The construction of the building is the issue. Nobody involved wants to have to repair the ceiling. He is working with me, so I'm not upset yet.
 
__dan said:
Who is it that wants the contract cancelled, you or the customer.
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Them, in the sense that they agree with me that we don't want to find out the hard way I can't make the holes.

The job is to illuminate a large table in the middle of the library. I'm suggesting a single square shallow high-output LED panel light instead of the six recessed lights in a circle. Equal total lumens and color (3500-4000 deg. K) equal to their preference.

They want to see if brighter bulbs in the existing lights (not over the table) will suffice before agreeing to my alternate suggestion.
 
LarryFine said:
Them, in the sense that they agree with me that we don't want to find out the hard way I can't make the holes.

The job is to illuminate a large table in the middle of the library. I'm suggesting a single square shallow high-output LED panel light instead of the six recessed lights in a circle. Equal total lumens and color (3500-4000 deg. K) equal to their preference.

They want to see if brighter bulbs in the existing lights (not over the table) will suffice before agreeing to my alternate suggestion.
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Do you have a light meter you are using to determine the difference in luminosity from the two different lighting concepts?

Are you positive any work permits will be signed by the review authority before beginning the work?

Have certain aspects of original ceiling construction been assessed like maybe there exist asbestos in the original construction?

If no hand held light meter is available a zone cavity program method could be available. Often times the sales person might run the calculation based on his/her assembly estimates and square footage, a reflected ceiling plan and electrical schematic with the OCPD.

There might be an opportunity to install battery pack egress lighting as this seems to be an assembly under International building code rules without a stage and without some of the other aspects of a church building for protection of a review process.
 
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