Car Dealership Service Bays

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mostra

Member
Can anyone tell me if a Car Dealership Service Bay is considered Class 1/Division 2? If so...What would be the correct way to bring underground conduit feeds to each car lift motor location up from slab thru the 24" designated hazardous location.
My interpretation of this code (511 Garages) as I've been told is any conduit passing thru unbroken (Solid Conduit Run) up and above the 24 inches is OK.
My Project Manager and the local inspector have me all confused now to this code requirement. The Inspector says I need a seal off and my Project Manager says no.
There is no Gas fuel being used in the building. Basically just changing oil, Brake Laithes, wheel balancers etc.,and your normal engine work.
Thanks in advance for any consultation.
 
Last edited:
My Project Manager is actually an Electrical Engineer and the Inspector is also the one saying it's C1/D2.
 
I believe determining electrical area classifications by Section 511.3 is like trying to read a California ballot Proposition where voting NO actually means YES. Nevertheless, Section 511.3 is the proper basis for classifying for your application.

I agree with Bob (petersonra) that it is not necessarily classified. I also happen to believe it probably is, since your project manager says it is. I suspect the most likely scenario is that Section 511.3(B)(2) applies. That is, even though flammable materials are not transferred, it was ??not designed in accordance with 511.3(A)(4).? Section 511.3(A)(4) has rather stringent ventilation requirements.

Having said that, it sounds like the inspector may be applying rules from Article 514. The proper rule is 501.15(B)(2), Exception No. 1. (See Section 511.4(A) for the appropriate cross reference.)
 
rbalex said:
I believe determining electrical area classifications by Section 511.3 is like trying to read a California ballot Proposition where voting NO actually means YES. Nevertheless, Section 511.3 is the proper basis for classifying for your application.

I agree with Bob (petersonra) that it is not necessarily classified. I also happen to believe it probably is, since your project manager says it is. I suspect the most likely scenario is that Section 511.3(B)(2) applies. That is, even though flammable materials are not transferred, it was ??not designed in accordance with 511.3(A)(4).? Section 511.3(A)(4) has rather stringent ventilation requirements.

Having said that, it sounds like the inspector may be applying rules from Article 514. The proper rule is 501.15(B)(2), Exception No. 1. (See Section 511.4(A) for the appropriate cross reference.)
Click to expand...


The key would seem to be whether there is a pit or not.
 
petersonra said:
The key would seem to be whether there is a pit or not.
Click to expand...
Yes; in the general world of electrical area classification "pits and depressions" can often present some odd conditions. A service bay is almost certain to have at least a small pit and it usually isn't worth the expense of ventilating it as outlined in Section 511.3(A)(4).
 
Car Dealership Service Bays

There are no Pits or Depressions in this dealership. All They have are 1 Phase 250V Car lifts. They do mostly tire balance and rotations change out any and all types of engine parts, warranty work and change oil. The oil pump room is seperate from the service bay. Nothing to me to be classified as explosive.
 
what if??

what if??

mostra said:
There are no Pits or Depressions in this dealership. All They have are 1 Phase 250V Car lifts. They do mostly tire balance and rotations change out any and all types of engine parts, warranty work and change oil. The oil pump room is seperate from the service bay. Nothing to me to be classified as explosive.
Click to expand...
You had to change a gas tank?? Or change a sending unit that is located in a gas tank or used extremely flamable vapors that is found in brake cleaner or carburator cleaner or wd-40 or pb blaster or propane that is used to find intake manifold leaks. when and where do you pump out the 15 gallons of gasoline and where do you store it ?? Just a thought when you try to say only tire changes and warranty work. I personally know 2 mechanics that have undergone extensive skin grafts and years of rehab due to being only slightly careless with gasoline. Both had no health insurance and burried them in debt. Commercial garages are verry dangerous places.
 
quogueelectric said:
You had to change a gas tank?? Or change a sending unit that is located in a gas tank or used extremely flamable vapors that is found in brake cleaner or carburator cleaner or wd-40 or pb blaster or propane that is used to find intake manifold leaks. when and where do you pump out the 15 gallons of gasoline and where do you store it ?? Just a thought when you try to say only tire changes and warranty work. I personally know 2 mechanics that have undergone extensive skin grafts and years of rehab due to being only slightly careless with gasoline. Both had no health insurance and burried them in debt. Commercial garages are verry dangerous places.
Click to expand...
Great Post by quogueelectric.... Several years back I was involved with many Dealer Garages and we wired all lifts overhead...
 
Commercial Garages

Commercial Garages

You do have a good point there. I myself don't know for sure just exactly what is done in those situations. Our Company has been at this particular dealership for over a year and a half doing a major remodel on all of the dealership and I have'nt once seen how they deal with those kind of matters but I will ask the General Manager on Monday and get back to all on there proper procedures.
Thanks for the wake-up call.
 
I am citing from the 2008 Edition of the NEC, because either the text is the same as the 2002 and 2005 Editions or it is clearer and you would eventually arrive at the same conclusions from earlier editions. Other citations are from the most recent Edition of the Standard cited. I have underlined a few things for emphasis.

From NFPA 70-2008
500.4 General.
(A) Documentation. All areas designated as hazardous (classified) locations shall be properly documented. This documentation shall be available to those authorized to design, install, inspect, maintain, or operate electrical equipment at the location.
Click to expand...

From NFPA 497-2004:

Scope
...
1.1.2 This recommended practice provides information on specific flammable gases and vapors, flammable liquids, and combustible liquids, whose relevant combustion properties have been sufficiently identified to allow their classification into the groups established by NFPA 70, National Electrical Code? (NEC?), for proper selection of electrical equipment in hazardous (classified) locations. The tables of selected combustible materials contained in this document are not intended to be all-inclusive
Click to expand...
.

From API RP500-1997 (Reaffirmed 2002):

1 Scope
1.1 PURPOSE
1.1.1 The purpose of this recommended practice is to provide guidelines for classifying locations Class I, Division l and Class I, Division 2 at petroleum facilities for the selection and installation of electrical equipment Basic definitions given in the 1996 edition of NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code (NEC), have been followed in developing this recommended practice. This publication is only a guide and requires the application of sound engineering judgment.
Click to expand...

I emphasize that the purpose of electrical area classification is for the design, installation, inspection, maintenance, or operation of electrical equipment at the location.

One of my earlier Proposals (1999 cycle) was to eliminate the term non-hazardous from Articles 500 through 516 and to define unclassified as a location that had been investigated and found to not be “Classified.” While the initial Proposal was rejected the concepts have subsequently been accepted.

One of the reasons was to recognize that, while an area may not be “Classified,” other hazards may well exist – such as those mentioned by quogueelectric. Nevertheless, those hazards are outside the scope of the Articles 500 through 516 and would be unaffected by electrical area classification and the wiring methods addressed in the OP.

They are addressed in other safety documents such as NFPA 30A-2008, Code for Motor Fuel Dispensing Facilities and Repair Garages.

NEC-2008, Section 511.3 has been totally reformatted and Section 511.2 “Definitions” has been added. The definitions for Major and Minor Repair Garages have been added. The definitions are directly taken from NFPA 30A.

Whether the facility is a “major” or “minor” facility and whether it is well ventilated or not does not alter the fact that Section 501.15(B)(2), Exception No. 1 is still the proper wiring method if it is classified.

Edit: Italicized Code for Motor Fuel Dispensing Facilities and Repair Garages.
 
Last edited:
Remember that the heading for 511.3 is "Area Classification,General."
Therefore, the type of work being performed is irrelevant. Up to 18" above the floor area as per 511.3(C)(1)(b) assumming you don't have the air exchange as per 511.3(C)(1)(a). Now you have to reference 501 for your wiring method transition requirements from C1,D2 to non-classified areas.
 
While [NEC-2008] Section 511.3 is titled ?Area Classification, General? everything in Subsection 511.3(C), including 511.3(C) (1) (b), only applies to ?Major Repair Garages;? i.e., the type of work is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, if the location must be classified, Section 511.4 redirects all wiring methods to 501 since the OP stated there was no dispensing involved and portable lighting isn't relevant to the OP.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top