Carnivals, Fairs, Festivals, etc

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ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Does anyone take do the work for these types of events.

If so:

1) Do you get inspected?

2) What are the biggest problems with these setups?

3) Do you think 525 is not practical or cost effective for setup &/or vendors?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Does anyone take do the work for these types of events.

If so:

1) Do you get inspected?

2) What are the biggest problems with these setups?

3) Do you think 525 is not practical or cost effective for setup &/or vendors?

I was told by one of my trade teachers to run away fast if asked to pull the permit for any of these and when I have been asked I have always said no way.

Here is how MA has ruled on it.

Statutory requirements for licensure and permitting of electrical
work at carnivals, circuses, fairs and similar events.
 

kevinkk

Member
Location
CA
Power for these events is easy, but a totally different animal.

My experience is many festivals / concerts. I have done mainly large events 40,000 plus people nine stages and 60 plus vendors. The simplest way to provide power is with generators. Power poles for short duration events are not worth the effort. ROI on power pole is achieved when event is a week or more.

Permit process here in CA when we use generator is just a life safety inspection grounding and trip hazards. I have the promoter or event organizer handle any permit or inspection fees.

If you are interested in doing this you can make money if you have the right gear.

Check out http://www.tmb.com/products/ProPower/

It is basically running a bunch of extension cords when you break it down to what it is you are really doing.

Carnivals rides are basically a bunch of large 3phase loads. You can provide for these with a properly sized generator or X number of generators and then distribute power with CAM cable. (CAM lock connectors on large welding cable)

Carnival booths and vendors are small single phase loads, except food vendors can be 50amp 220, you can use spider boxes and 6/4 for the small loads

Fairs same as Carnivals with usually the addition of stages.

Staging power usually requires you to just provide 3h to the staging sub contractor who will usually handle powering their equipment.

Concerts basically large 150 to 300 KVA per stage for big concerts, 25KVA and up for smaller stages. Things to remember, power going out equals very bad things for you. I parallel two generators so if one goes down there is not a problem. Also lighting and sound power should be separate, lighting is a lot of non linier loads and HID so sound guys prefer a clean separate source, just remember to bond your grounds at the gens set together to avoid ground potential differences on stage.

The people who are currently doing this work are not electrical and are not required to be electricians, unless it is a union facility and even then they are in a separate union and not actual electrical contractors. You can market your superior knowledge and qualifications and get jobs and usually more money.

Important things to keep in mind.

-Every run has a properly sized breaker; do not use fuses trying to replace fuses during an event very bad

-every 120volt circuit has a GFCI no exceptions, I also use http://www.bender.org/ on my sub feeder runs when they will be in public areas or when fencing will cross over my cables.

-Every power source is properly grounded, plan on placing generators near dirt so you can easily drive rods, also plan on leaving the rod, way easer to pound it in a few more inches than pull out 8 to 10 feet

-All cords in traffic paths human and vehicles need covered to prevent damage and tripping, also remember you will need to comply with ADA rules http://www.yjams.com/

Fuel for generators I use only Diesel gen set and use BIO-Fuel no problems with spills and makes tree huggers happy

If you have any further questions I have over 10 years doing event power as a weekend hobby.
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
October Fest

October Fest

Boy don't I look forward to that every year.:mad: The owner of our company handles this as he is some what of a community guy. We have a 200A service sitting in the middle of a field with bunches of assorted receptacles below. We have an electrician on stand-by each year as the inspection process becomes a circus as the vendors set up. Not at all unusual to get the OK from the building dept the morning of the event.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
The people who are currently doing this work are not electrical and are not required to be electricians, unless it is a union facility and even then they are in a separate union and not actual electrical contractors.

That changes from state to state, in many areas electricians are required union or not.
 

kevinkk

Member
Location
CA
That changes from state to state, in many areas electricians are required union or not.

Noted, I was trying to give a sales tip, I know that most of the time an electrician is required or should be required, but you have to also recognize that some of the time the people doing this work are nothing close to electricians. So when selling a job it would be a good thing to point out your qualifications.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Noted, I was trying to give a sales tip, I know that most of the time an electrician is required or should be required, but you have to also recognize that some of the time the people doing this work are nothing close to electricians. So when selling a job it would be a good thing to point out your qualifications.

I understand. :)

How it has been here for a while is this.

A carnival from another state swings into town and starts setting up, they get a visit from the local inspector asking about the permit. The carny says no problem I will get a permit. Then they learn only MA licensed electricians can pull a permit. So they start looking for some sucker MA electrician to pull the permit but not do the work. So the electrician takes on full liability for the electrical, breaks the law and risks their license ........ thats why I have run from this in the past. :)
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
At a local festival I noticed about 20+ violations including NM cable run to different vendor tents, sub-feeds strapped to "one way" signs and run with 3-wire. Lots and lots of UF cable on the ground, open boxes not locked out, extension cords with receptacles in the ends, zero GFCI protection and overhead clearance not maintained for rides.

This is why I inquired here.
 

kevinkk

Member
Location
CA
A carnival from another state swings into town and starts setting up, they get a visit from the local inspector asking about the permit. The carny says no problem I will get a permit. Then they learn only MA licensed electricians can pull a permit. So they start looking for some sucker MA electrician to pull the permit but not do the work. So the electrician takes on full liability for the electrical, breaks the law and risks their license ........ thats why I have run from this in the past. :)

I haven?t run in to this situation yet, but good advice you never can trust a carny.
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
Then they learn only MA licensed electricians can pull a permit. So they start looking for some sucker MA electrician to pull the permit but not do the work.

Looks like your calling my fearless leader a sucker.:roll: As stated, we pull the permits and jump through hoops trying to make these events safe and compliant, usually bustin butt to get approval the morning the event is scheduled.
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
That changes from state to state, in many areas electricians are required union or not.
In the past, i have done these events across the country and the only place where I could not even pick up a cable was Chicago, and that was actually a union rule for the stadium.

An electrician needs to connect cam-lock tails to the generator unless they were already installed by a mechanic before it leaves the rental facility. An electrician must also drive any necessary ground rods and any other necessary non-cord-and-plug connections.

The rest of these setups is cord and plug, and you could hire cheap temporary labor to hump the cables to save your back and increase profit ($$$$).

To the OP, if you were going to even entertain doing one of these, go to a rental outfit and rent the panels and cables (and even accessories like portable cable trays/covers). Most of the larger generator rental outfits also carry distribution too. There is an entire industry geared toward these events. You can't be cost competitive without the proper equipment, whether you own it or rent it.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
KevinKK has it right. I do three or four music festivals every year (in different states). Some require inspections, most don't. We use both perminant supplies and generators, but after that, it's all cord-n-plug, albeit 2/0 & camloks might be stretching the definition :D. At least on my shows, I get to punt vendors with dodgy setups, and I design for full loads (no demand factors), so feeders don't trip out. And my crew has actually read 520, 525, 590, and the ESTA standards. (OTOH, we don't have carnival rides.)

It's not rocket science, but you do need to keep on top of things. CAT & Kohler rentals, Lex products, and Trystar Industries are your friends.

"When the revolution comes, the first ones against the wall will be the food vendors."
 
Permanent fairs/carnivals, etc... are generally not as much of an issue as the traveling fairs/carnivals.

The ones that blow in for a few days, are usually have a ton of issues. When I get a call for these, I usually will set aside a little more time for the inspection, with a call to let them know that I will enforce any issues, to try and help them prepare a little more.

I have some of my best "worst" pictures from these carnivals.

In our area, the town or a church is usually where these are sponsored. This does not mean the setup will be much better.
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Here are some treats from a 4 day festival that is in the city where I am one of the primary electrical inspectors. I had no idea about this, I never issued a permit, I never did an inspection and stumbled upon this on the last day.

IMG00006-20090823-1042.jpg


IMG00009-20090823-1048.jpg


IMG00011-20090823-1051.jpg
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Local union in AZ was trying to hustle up work in the early 70's recession so they went after the annual state fair by publicizing all the dangers (which were legitimate safety concerns)

They didn't get any work out of their efforts but coincidentally, Gus, a prized longhorn steer/mascott was accidentally electrocuted that year.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Here are some treats from a 4 day festival that is in the city where I am one of the primary electrical inspectors. I had no idea about this, I never issued a permit, I never did an inspection and stumbled upon this on the last day.

IMG00006-20090823-1042.jpg


IMG00009-20090823-1048.jpg


IMG00011-20090823-1051.jpg
What a big mess
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I run the wiring for my church's Aegean festival every year. While the festival and the food itself is a great time it's not something I look forward to. In the 1980's It used to take my son and I about 4 hours to set up on a Sunday after church services. That's when we only had one tent for the outdoor cooking items. The event has grown exponentially since then and it now takes me 4 days to set up and a day to knock down (all high profit work - if you know what I mean ;))

We now have one extremely large tent powered by a 30 circuit, 100 amp 3-phase panel, one smaller tent powered by another 3 phase panel and 3 smaller tents powered from a light pole (lighting only). Years ago we used to drape SER cable across the roof of the community center, ran it through a hole in the wall into the utility room and tied it into a breaker panel. Since the community center has been remodeled we now have (3) 100 amp-3 phase disconnects placed in key locations. All the equipment I use is owned by the church.

In almost all cases all the circuits in the tent area are GFI protected (i.e lighting, receptacles for cash registers, etc.) The only circuits that we don't have protected are for outdoor refrigeration equipment we rent from the tent rental company. The units are so old that they trip GFI's regularly so we keep them up on pallets and away from the general public. All extension cords used are high quality, heavy duty and are run through the tie-downs for the tent roofs. The company that provides the rides have their own generators and they get inspected separately.

As a rule we don't get electrical inspections for the tent area but if I were an outside contractor doing this work I would most definitely get inspected and correct anything that I might get failed for. The only inspections we get are fire inspections since most of the cooking equipment is propane operated (we generally get about twenty 100 gallon tanks). The event is coming up on Sept 11-12-13. I'll take some photos and post them and then suffer a critique from my colleagues.

I know I didn't answer you question regarding costs or what to charge but a lot depends on how big the event is. If I had to guess, for the amount of time that I put into this I would say that my time is worth about $4K-$5K. If I had to buy the material for this event I'd probably figure on another $2K-$3K. But, in my case, I'm paving my path to heaven:roll:
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Our local Simi Valley Days starts in a couple of weeks. Luckly we have the same company for the carnival every year so they know what I'm looking for. It's the local vendors and mechants that we have the most trouble with, but again I have a good local electrician that makes sure everything is safe. The fact that I'm on the Simi Valley Days committee also reminds them that I will be there every day keeping an eye on them.:D
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
As promised here are some photos of a recent carnival (Greek Festival) that I wire up every year for my church:

Tents arrive and the madness begins

Greekfestival09-1.jpg


Greekfestival09-2.jpg


Main breaker panel tied into 3 phase disconnect before extension cords are installed

Greekfestival09-6.jpg


Main breaker panel after cords are plugged in

Greekfestival09-10.jpg


Sub-panel in cafe tent

Greekfestival09-4.jpg


Gyro machines set up with meat cones installed. Almost all food processing equipment we used when the event was very small used to be all electric but we've upgraded over the years to propane. We now order 14 - 100lb propane tanks that run 6 gyro machines, 4 open grills, 2 griddles, 3 deep fryers for Greek fries, 1 deep fryer for something called loukomathes (symilar to Italian zepole's) and 1 gas range.

Greekfestival09-8.jpg


Cutting the meat off the gyro cone

Greekfestival09-9.jpg


Fresh lamb on the grill

Greekfestival09-13.jpg


Before you all begin making comments on the electrical installation I would just like to add that when I started doing this some 15 years ago the equipment and materials I inherited from the previous electrician were abysmal. Over the years and as the church was able to make material purchases I tried to make these installations as safe as possible but not always 100% NEC compliant (forgive me Mike Holt). You'll notice things like covers missing on receptacles and some receptacles not GFI protected but bear in mind that these panels are not located in areas where the public has access( I'm not asking for forgiveness on that). Also, the refers and freezers are plugged into non-GFI protected receptacles. These run 24-7 for 4 days straight. They are rented units and are notorious for tripping GFI's.

OK, If you wish to ask any questions I will try to answer them to the best of my ability. By the way, as some have already mentioned this is not the type of temporary installation you should be looking into to make big bucks or to hang out your license on the line for. I do this because this is my church, I make the choice to take reasonable risks and I control what gets plugged into what. If you're doing this as an independent contractor you lose much of that control.
 
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