Caulking around outlet boxes

[Ragin Cajun]

Just got a letter from a client:

"The building inspector was out at the job today for electrical inspection he required us to remove all of the switch plates and outlet plates. During inspection he says any box with a 1/8” gap between it and the sheetrock has to be caulked. This will be every box. Is this some new code? I have never run into this even on jobs with blower door test we have not had to do this."

Anybody run into this?


thanks
RC

 

[luckylerado]

It is in the building code and should only apply to fire rated walls and IMO is a problem for the mud and tape guy.

EDIT:

I found it in NEC as well and it does seem to apply to all wall types but my opinion stands that it is on the mud and tape guy.

314.21 Repairing Noncombustible Surfaces
Noncombustible surfaces that are broken or incomplete around
boxes employing a flush-type cover or faceplate shall be repaired
so there will be no gaps or open spaces greater than 3 mm (1/8 in.)
at the edge of the box.

 

[Ragin Cajun]

Thanks,

I looked in 314 but missed it.

I'm blind in one eye and can't see out of the other.


RC

 

[infinity]

Right from the NEC.

314.21 Repairing Noncombustible Surfaces. Noncom-
bustible surfaces that are broken or incomplete around
boxes employing a flush-type cover or faceplate shall be
repaired so there will be no gaps or open spaces greater
than 3 mm ( 1 ⁄ 8 in.) at the edge of the box.

 

[robert pitre]

Caulking around the out let boxes

Caulking around the out let boxes

this is due to the new energy efficiency code,we now starting in forcing it in the five parishes that we do code inforcement in.we started inspected in 2015

 

[infinity]

This requirement in some form has been in the NEC for decades but was largely unenforced. The measured 1/8" requirement first appeared in the 1987 NEC. {370-11}

 

[GerryB]

Sounds like an AHJ with a new toy to play with. He probably couldn't wait to try it out. What about ceiling boxes etc. If they are going to do that then they should have another inspection of the finished walls before you trim out. (You didn't have all "grande plates" on did you?)

 

[kwired]

Sounds like an AHJ with a new toy to play with. He probably couldn't wait to try it out. What about ceiling boxes etc. If they are going to do that then they should have another inspection of the finished walls before you trim out. (You didn't have all "grande plates" on did you?)

Nothing prohibits oversized plates, you can still caulk or use other material and cover any remaining finish blemishes with the oversized plate, you just can't use the oversized plate as sole cover for a mis-cut opening.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Right from the NEC.

yep. patching poor sheetrock isn't in my job description.

taper missed it, taper can fix it.

what we've always been held to is that the ring must be
within 1/8" of the finished wall surface. keeps you from using
1/2" rings on 5/8" sheetrock.

now these side step the entire issue...

http://bocci.ca/22-series/22-dry-wall/

 

[TobyD]

We too are dealing with the vacum tests.There still may be other ways to pass the blower/ vacum test.Often times the insulation installer spray foams around the exterior wall boxes.In other cases wall boxes with glued on gaskets are used.We use air lock design recessed can lighting.One builder in particular failed the energy test multiple times on one dwelling.The test wasn't being performed correctly.I do carry duct seal ,caulking ,and drywall mud for such cases.But, in my opinion(with the outlet box adjusted properly) the drywall finisher is responsible for cutting close around the outlet box.

The list goes on..The electrician gets blamed for the issue.The person responsible has gotten paid and moved on.It seems that many tradesman haven't had the mentor's that they need to be in business.

 

[Fulthrotl]

We too are dealing with the vacum tests.

vacuum tests? what tests?

i don't personally need a vacuum test. if i
worked on the building, i know it sucks.

 

[goldstar]

Yes, electricians get blamed for everything. What about the "Roto-zip Rebel" sheet rockers ? First thing is they plunge the Roto-zip into the box looking for the outside of it while ripping your wires to spreads. Then they over cut the hole. The electrician gets burdened with the onus of having to do the repair because he hasn't been paid yet. Why does the EI get to tag you for this? There should be a sheetrock inspector as well.:rant:

 

[kwired]

Yes, electricians get blamed for everything. What about the "Roto-zip Rebel" sheet rockers ? First thing is they plunge the Roto-zip into the box looking for the outside of it while ripping your wires to spreads. Then they over cut the hole. The electrician gets burdened with the onus of having to do the repair because he hasn't been paid yet. Why does the EI get to tag you for this? There should be a sheetrock inspector as well.:rant:

I have hung my share of drywall and used roto-tools for cutouts. You may make mistakes until you get a little used to using the tool, but once you have done it for a little while it is not that hard if you are not in too big of a hurry and not paying attention. Problem with most drywall hanger crews is they are paid by the square foot so the more you can get done in a certain time period the more you get paid (sort of). But they are not penalized enough for mistakes - therefore they work fast and make a lot of mistakes and don't care, the finishing crew has to fix their mistakes.

It doesn't take long as an electrical installer to realize that you need to arrange conductors so they are not near the opening of the box, and hope that they don't find a 3 inch long rotary bit when one only an inch or so is plenty long enough to do the job. They do sometimes cut up plastic boxes though - after doing some of those cutouts myself I still have to wonder how they do that if they are paying any attention at all.

 

[mgookin]

I have hung my share of drywall and used roto-tools for cutouts. You may make mistakes until you get a little used to using the tool, but once you have done it for a little while it is not that hard if you are not in too big of a hurry and not paying attention. Problem with most drywall hanger crews is they are paid by the square foot so the more you can get done in a certain time period the more you get paid (sort of). But they are not penalized enough for mistakes - therefore they work fast and make a lot of mistakes and don't care, the finishing crew has to fix their mistakes.

It doesn't take long as an electrical installer to realize that you need to arrange conductors so they are not near the opening of the box, and hope that they don't find a 3 inch long rotary bit when one only an inch or so is plenty long enough to do the job. They do sometimes cut up plastic boxes though - after doing some of those cutouts myself I still have to wonder how they do that if they are paying any attention at all.

And by not making that drywall crew go back and correct it, the GC is "training" that drywall crew to keep doing it.

It's falling back on the EC because the rejection notice says electrical box.

The EC has every bit of standing to argue "that's my box but that drywall is not my work; the box is fine."

 

[kwired]

And by not making that drywall crew go back and correct it, the GC is "training" that drywall crew to keep doing it.

It's falling back on the EC because the rejection notice says electrical box.

The EC has every bit of standing to argue "that's my box but that drywall is not my work; the box is fine."

I do see your point.

My experience is GC or no GC, that the drywall hanging crew is long gone and already been paid before the problem is discovered and you can try all you want to get them to come correct it, or you can deal with it yourself and get it done and over with. Often taping and painting is already done as well - but if any one originally involved is coming to fix it it will be the tape/painters and not the hangers that made the original mistake.

The thing that comes with having a GC is the electrician can put it on the GC to decide how to deal with the wall defect and they may have their own general construction workers that will come and fix some of those minor problems (to the GC anyway).

 

[JFletcher]

if i worked on the building, i know it sucks.

I bet we're gonna start seeing wall plates with some sort of re-usable caulk bead on the backside to fix this problem. IMHO it's only on the EC if the box/mudring is not flush with the finished wall... and if the powers that be still say it (sheetrock gaps) is on the EC, build the cost of sending a helper and the appropriate caulk to every box into the job.

 

[kwired]

I bet we're gonna start seeing wall plates with some sort of re-usable caulk bead on the backside to fix this problem. IMHO it's only on the EC if the box/mud ring is not flush with the finished wall... and if the powers that be still say it (sheetrock gaps) is on the EC, build the cost of sending a helper and the appropriate caulk to every box into the job.

The box/mudring doesn't need to be flush on a non combustible wall finish (like drywall), it can be recessed up to 1/4 inch. This 1/8 inch gap rule applies to how big of a gap is allowed between the edge of the box/mud ring and opening in the finish. Why this rule is necessary I have no idea, it probably is overlooked a lot but has been there for a long time.

 

[JFletcher]

The box/mudring doesn't need to be flush on a non combustible wall finish (like drywall), it can be recessed up to 1/4 inch. This 1/8 inch gap rule applies to how big of a gap is allowed between the edge of the box/mud ring and opening in the finish. Why this rule is necessary I have no idea, it probably is overlooked a lot but has been there for a long time.

True, I was writing more to having the mudring inset >1/4" or sticking out of the drywall. That's on the EC. How the drywall is cut out around the box is beyond our control, unless you happen to have a sheetrock co. on the side.

It's more a practical matter to me than a code issue (box/ring inset). Having to use long screws/spacers/extenders/f-clips come trim out is a waste of time. If it's inset more than a 1/4", chances are it will get covered by drywall.

The 1/8" rule was pretty tight on commercial jobs I did for LV/LE (communications), with most every wall being sound and fire rated (hotels). It was also never dropped on us because it's the drywall man's job to see to it the gap is acceptable.

infinity mentioned the rule came about in the 87 NEC... I wonder if that coincides with widespread use then of roto-zip type tools.

 

[kwired]

infinity mentioned the rule came about in the 87 NEC... I wonder if that coincides with widespread use then of roto-zip type tools.

There must not have been a minimum gap requirement before then, but I can see once they did put in a rule that the 1/8 inch allowed may coincide with the fact those rotary bits are typically 1/8 inch bits, so hug the box when cutting out and you are fine.

Drywall is easy to fill any excessive gap with mud, but a large opening on other finishes is harder to deal with, the carpenters (or whoever) just want you to use a jumbo wall plate. In those cases I usually do caulk around the box to close the gap to comply with code, then still cover their mis-cut with a jumbo plate.