CE certification on VFDs: 61800-3 and 61800-5

[LMAO]

I was wondering if anyone has done these tests. They require loading up VFDs which, as you know, requires a ton of equipment: 2 coupled motors, a regenerative drive used as load... not to mention structural costs like supplying the sources, securing the motors to the skid and etc.

Easier way I can think of is using resistors as load and tricking the VFD into thinking it is running a motor by running it in V/Hz. As far as I know CE test does not require anything weird like locked-rotor test, and all measurements are done at the input of the VFD. I may be wrong though.

I appreciate anyone's opinion on this. This is non-hazardous area only.

 

[Jraef]

I was wondering if anyone has done these tests. They require loading up VFDs which, as you know, requires a ton of equipment: 2 coupled motors, a regenerative drive used as load... not to mention structural costs like supplying the sources, securing the motors to the skid and etc.

Easier way I can think of is using resistors as load and tricking the VFD into thinking it is running a motor by running it in V/Hz. As far as I know CE test does not require anything weird like locked-rotor test, and all measurements are done at the input of the VFD. I may be wrong though.

I appreciate anyone's opinion on this. This is non-hazardous area only.

So are you the VFD mfr then? That's who typically does the CE certification of the VFD. When I worked for a mfr (in a capacity to be involved in this), the test was with a motor, because the certification was for the complete "Power Drive System" (PDS) which was the VFD + the motor. But in reality if you used a motor that had CE already, then you could test your VFD with any CE certified motor and get the certification for your drive. So I doubt that you can use some other load bank for the testing, because it is not going to be the PDS that will be used by the end customer. Also as I recall, the testing and certification was not cheap. In or case by the time we finished tallying up the costs, we ended up brand-labeling a VFD that was already certified.

If you are a user / OEM / contractor and are wanting to use a VFD that does not already have CE certification, it seems to me the less expensive route would simply be to use one that does.

 

[mwm1752]

CE is a European Union mark has nothing to do with testing for safety -- not an approved NRTL like UL - ETL - CSA ect -- if CE is the only marking it is not!!!! listed to OSHA standards of safety

 

[LMAO]

So are you the VFD mfr then? That's who typically does the CE certification of the VFD. When I worked for a mfr (in a capacity to be involved in this), the test was with a motor, because the certification was for the complete "Power Drive System" (PDS) which was the VFD + the motor. But in reality if you used a motor that had CE already, then you could test your VFD with any CE certified motor and get the certification for your drive. So I doubt that you can use some other load bank for the testing, because it is not going to be the PDS that will be used by the end customer. Also as I recall, the testing and certification was not cheap. In or case by the time we finished tallying up the costs, we ended up brand-labeling a VFD that was already certified.

If you are a user / OEM / contractor and are wanting to use a VFD that does not already have CE certification, it seems to me the less expensive route would simply be to use one that does.

I am not exactly the VFD manufacturer; we just packge the VFDs in our enclosures that house the VFD, breaker, our controls, HMI, control transformer, reactor, braking module, etc.... You are right about PDS but I am not trying to certify the PDS, just the CDM which does not include the motor.

Our VFDs are already CE certified by mfr but only on BDM level, obviously because we buy the VFD (aka BDM) only and everything else in the enclosure comes from different places.

 

[mwm1752]

From the UL white book -- maybe you just want to ignore it but your thread is constantly referring to "self-declaration" type testing not third party

CE Marking Information
A CE Marking is a European marking of conformity that indicates that a product complies with the essential requirements of the applicable European laws or Directives with respect to safety, health, environment and consumer protection. Generally, this conformity to the applicable directives is done through self-declaration. The CE Marking is required on products in the countries of the European Economic Area (EEA) to facilitate trade between the member countries. The manufacturer or his authorized representative established in the EEA is responsible for affixing the CE Marking to his product.
The CE Marking provides a means for a manufacturer to demonstrate that his product complies with a common set of laws required by all of the countries in the EEA to allow free movement of trade within the EEA countries.
Unlike the UL Mark, the CE Marking:
■ Is not a safety certification mark,
■ Is generally based on self-declaration rather than third-party certification, and
■ Does not demonstrate compliance to North American safety standards or installation codes.
Aproduct that bears a CE Marking may also bear a certification mark, such as UL’s Listing Mark; however, the CE Marking and the UL Mark have no association. The UL Mark indicates compliance with the applicable safety requirements in effect in North America and is evidence of UL certification, which is accepted by model North American installation codes, such as the National Electrical Code® and the Canadian Electrical Code®.
The CE Marking on products is not a certification mark. AHJs should continue to look for the UL Mark on products in order to determine if a product complies with applicable safety requirements for North America.

 

[LMAO]

From the UL white book -- maybe you just want to ignore it but your thread is constantly referring to "self-declaration" type testing not third party

CE Marking Information
A CE Marking is a European marking of conformity that indicates that a product complies with the essential requirements of the applicable European laws or Directives with respect to safety, health, environment and consumer protection. Generally, this conformity to the applicable directives is done through self-declaration. The CE Marking is required on products in the countries of the European Economic Area (EEA) to facilitate trade between the member countries. The manufacturer or his authorized representative established in the EEA is responsible for affixing the CE Marking to his product.
The CE Marking provides a means for a manufacturer to demonstrate that his product complies with a common set of laws required by all of the countries in the EEA to allow free movement of trade within the EEA countries.
Unlike the UL Mark, the CE Marking:
■ Is not a safety certification mark,
■ Is generally based on self-declaration rather than third-party certification, and
■ Does not demonstrate compliance to North American safety standards or installation codes.
Aproduct that bears a CE Marking may also bear a certification mark, such as UL’s Listing Mark; however, the CE Marking and the UL Mark have no association. The UL Mark indicates compliance with the applicable safety requirements in effect in North America and is evidence of UL certification, which is accepted by model North American installation codes, such as the National Electrical Code® and the Canadian Electrical Code®.
The CE Marking on products is not a certification mark. AHJs should continue to look for the UL Mark on products in order to determine if a product complies with applicable safety requirements for North America.

Maybe I am using the term "certification" loosely. Yes, speaking on CE it's all self-decleration (no official third party certification). I have seen the terms "self-decleration" and "self-certification" used interchangeably, maybe they shouldn't....

 

[GoldDigger]

LMAO:
Is your situation that the consumer of the product is outside the US and is requiring a CE mark, butdoes not care about UL?

 

[Tony S]

LMAO:
Is your situation that the consumer of the product is outside the US and is requiring a CE mark, but does not care about UL?

Which is why EU countries are wary of US products. The Πmarking denotes the product is suitable for use in the EU and meets both IEC electrical standards and H&S requirements.

It is self certified but it includes traceability by default.

 

[LMAO]

LMAO:
Is your situation that the consumer of the product is outside the US and is requiring a CE mark, butdoes not care about UL?

Yes, we are a UL508A shop but need CE mark (self-declaration) to export to Europe. Also, some of our clients in Africa and Middle East want us to present IEC 61800-X test reports...

 

[mwm1752]

Which is why EU countries are wary of US products. The Πmarking denotes the product is suitable for use in the EU and meets both IEC electrical standards and H&S requirements.

It is self certified but it includes traceability by default.

That'statement indeed--I would say only having a CE mark
"Which is why US are wary of EU countries products." Please define "IEC" & "H&S"

 

[Jraef]

That'statement indeed--I would say only having a CE mark
"Which is why US are wary of EU countries products." Please define "IEC" & "H&S"

IEC = International Electrotechnical Commission, the standards organization that covers the rest of the world other than North America, although for the most part, UL (and I think CSA) are in the process of "harmonizing" their standards to be in alignment. You will notice that UL has already begun the process when you find that the old UL Standards are being updated to 5 digit standard numbers that are the same numbers as the IEC standards. So for example our venerable UL508 is now becoming UL60947, which matches IEC standard 60947. It's not a one-way street however, the IEC standards are being amended to match some UL requirements that they lacked as well. But regardless, UL508 will cease to exist next year.
http://www.ul.com/global/documents/...rces/UL60947_Transition_1st_communication.pdf

The big difference is, however, that UL is an independent "third party" testing agency, whereas in the rest of the world manufacturers can "self certify" their adherence to IEC standards. That's the same for CE certification as well by the way.

H&S = Health and Safety. In the EU, a lot of countries impose stricter requirements for EMI/RFI emissions than we do here via the FCC. The FCC is primarily concerned with RFI interference with radio transmissions, but some countries in the EU are buying into this stuff about the harmful effects EM "radiation" on human tissue.