CE Listings

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redewire

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I am working on a new upcoming project which requires some Control Cabinets. My engineer acquired some Cabinets from another company site that were built in Japan with mostly Japanese electrical components. So far I have not been able to find any USA listings on the components, I am looking at some Circuit Breakers made by FUJI which have a CE listing which is not US approved. I am not too well versed on CE Standards, can anyone out there enlighten me on CE listings, and am I right in rejecting their application on any retro fitting in any cabinets we may use on site. Also can this cabinet he purchased be used here in Ames, Iowa as it is with all thge Japanese components? So far the only UL listings I have found are on a couple of components that are CSA/US listed and a few Cutler Hammer Breakers which are Ul listed.

Redewire
 
redewire said:
I am working on a new upcoming project which requires some Control Cabinets. My engineer acquired some Cabinets from another company site that were built in Japan with mostly Japanese electrical components. So far I have not been able to find any USA listings on the components, I am looking at some Circuit Breakers made by FUJI which have a CE listing which is not US approved. I am not too well versed on CE Standards, can anyone out there enlighten me on CE listings, and am I right in rejecting their application on any retro fitting in any cabinets we may use on site. Also can this cabinet he purchased be used here in Ames, Iowa as it is with all thge Japanese components? So far the only UL listings I have found are on a couple of components that are CSA/US listed and a few Cutler Hammer Breakers which are Ul listed.

Redewire
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CE is not an NRTL listing like UL or TUV.

It is a statement by the manufacturer of the product that it meets ALL applicable rules and regulations of the EEC.

It is all but completely meaningless in the USA.
 
redewire said:
I am working on a new upcoming project which requires some Control Cabinets. My engineer acquired some Cabinets from another company site that were built in Japan with mostly Japanese electrical components. So far I have not been able to find any USA listings on the components, I am looking at some Circuit Breakers made by FUJI which have a CE listing which is not US approved. I am not too well versed on CE Standards, can anyone out there enlighten me on CE listings, and am I right in rejecting their application on any retro fitting in any cabinets we may use on site. Also can this cabinet he purchased be used here in Ames, Iowa as it is with all thge Japanese components? So far the only UL listings I have found are on a couple of components that are CSA/US listed and a few Cutler Hammer Breakers which are Ul listed.

Redewire
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I see this everyday, someone finds some forgein equipment and saves a few bucks up front, later they run into listing issues, then later they learn about the replacement parts nightmare they have created, in the long run ends up costing a lot more.
 
The CE mark is a self-certification by the manufacturer that the product meets CE standards. This is equivalent in the US to NEMA.

Listings are usually a verification of independent testing to the appropriate standards.

There are some minor differences between CE and US standards. For example the water stream used to test the integrity of a UL Type 1 enclosure is different then the one used for an IP enclosure. Some people consider the IP tests to be more realistic.

But, there are also some major differences which should not be overlooked. The methods for determining the AIC of a breaker means that you cannot directly, if at all, use CE ratings on a US power system. Another major problem is that CE standards do not have the same requirements, as do US standards, for the level of toxicity of smoke by-products that result during the combustion of electrical equipment.
 
zog said:
I see this everyday, someone finds some forgein equipment and saves a few bucks up front, later they run into listing issues, then later they learn about the replacement parts nightmare they have created, in the long run ends up costing a lot more.
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I don't know. there are a lot of foreign built control panels here that work just fine, are safe, and efficient.

They can be a chore to find replacement parts for, but the vast majority of the parts don't require an exact duplicate part. one terminal block is about as good as the next one, and fuses and circuit breakers can often have substitutes that work just fine.

The problem is mostly one where someone wants to enforce a UL listing requirement on the control panel. It probably just ain't going to happen unless it was built that way. And what difference does it make if the components are UL listed anyway if the control panel is not listed?
 
petersonra said:
I don't know. there are a lot of foreign built control panels here that work just fine, are safe, and efficient.
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Foregin was a bad term to use, after all almost everything in a power system is forgein made, all the big OEM's hire out production to the lowest bidder for a fixed quanity. The problem isnt where it is made but where it is sold.
 
CE Listings

There are no such things as CE standards, perhaps the moderator is confusing CE with IEC Standards. The CE mark is primarily a self declaration that the product complies with europen directives that all products that are sold in europe need to comply with so they can be sold across country lines in the European Economic Area. It is primarily to facilitate trade across country lines in Europe.

Look on page 39 in the 2008 UL White Book.

This is the information that appears there and at this link http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/...or/electrical/additionalresources/cemarkings/

CE Marking Information
A CE Marking is a European marking of conformity that indicates that a product complies with the essential requirements of the applicable European laws or Directives with respect to safety, health, environment and consumer protection. Generally, this conformity to the applicable directives is done through self-declaration. The CE Marking is required on products in the countries of the European Economic Area (EEA) to facilitate trade between the member countries. The manufacturer or his authorized representative established in the EEA is responsible for affixing the CE Marking to his product. The CE Marking provides a means for a manufacturer to demonstrate that his product complies with a common set of laws required by all of the countries in the EEA to allow free movement of trade within the EEA countries.

Unlike the UL Mark, the CE Marking:
Is not a safety certification mark,
Is generally based on self-declaration rather than third-party certification, and
Does not demonstrate compliance to North American safety standards or installation codes.
A product that bears a CE Marking may also bear a certification mark, such as UL's Listing Mark; however, the CE Marking and the UL Mark have no association. The UL Mark indicates compliance with the applicable safety requirements in effect in North America and is evidence of UL certification, which is accepted by model North American installation codes, such as the National Electrical Code? and the Canadian Electrical Code? .

I hope this helps.
 
lrtcubb said:
There are no such things as CE standards, perhaps the moderator is confusing...
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No actually I was purposely using 'slang'.
While I am normally a stickler for using terms properly (to prevent misunderstanding), there are times when it is easier to provide a quick answer using terms familiar to the questioner.

Yes, there are actually differences between standards and directives, and between self-declaration and self-certification, but I felt they were not important enough to highlight during this discussion.
 
The fun stuff with CE is working out what exactly the "applicable standards" are, for example, most electrical stuff needs tocomopmy with the low voltage directive, but there are many others.

It is (in Europe) illegal to sell any goods required to be compliant with a directive that are not CE marked. Unlike UL (and equivalants) which are optional, CE is mandatory.

Of course, as CE is a self cetification scheme one can sell good CE marked that are not compliant with the relevant directives...
 
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