eddycurrents
Member
When did the NEC make it a requirement to use a fan rated box when installing ceiling fans?
ceiling fan rated boxes
- Thread starter eddycurrents
- Start date
- Status
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
314.27 d
as to when i first heard of the rule about 10 years ago,give or take a few beers.
I prefer the plastic L shaped ones,the screws go into the wood.
314.27 d
as to when i first heard of the rule about 10 years ago,give or take a few beers.
I prefer the plastic L shaped ones,the screws go into the wood.
eddycurrents
Member
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
The reason I ask is an inspector wants me to changeout 30 boxes that support fans. The fans were isnstalled in the building 24 years ago. That wasnt even in my bid and I didnt include it in my scope of work when I pulled the permit for the job.
The reason I ask is an inspector wants me to changeout 30 boxes that support fans. The fans were isnstalled in the building 24 years ago. That wasnt even in my bid and I didnt include it in my scope of work when I pulled the permit for the job.
mthead
Senior Member
- Location
- Long Beach,NY
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
E.C.-what was in the job plan?
Were you replacing the fans?
Did you have to take them down in order to do the work you did contract for?
An inspector usually makes a call like that when the old work is involved in some fashion with the new work.If you have a feed available for a lite you're installing ,but its coming out of an old ,overfilled box ,you can't just tap in and say "it was like that when I got here".It becomes your responsibility as the last Elec. of record , to correct that situation-because if that house burns down ,for whatever reason all the Ins. people see is your name as the last guy who worked there.
These fans may have stayed up for 24 yrs,but if the work you did there in any way involved them,and one subsequently falls down on someone ,it will be your head and the inspectors on the block because you didn't bring it up to code and he didn't make you ,when it was apparent that the exposed old work was not up to current standards.
E.C.-what was in the job plan?
Were you replacing the fans?
Did you have to take them down in order to do the work you did contract for?
An inspector usually makes a call like that when the old work is involved in some fashion with the new work.If you have a feed available for a lite you're installing ,but its coming out of an old ,overfilled box ,you can't just tap in and say "it was like that when I got here".It becomes your responsibility as the last Elec. of record , to correct that situation-because if that house burns down ,for whatever reason all the Ins. people see is your name as the last guy who worked there.
These fans may have stayed up for 24 yrs,but if the work you did there in any way involved them,and one subsequently falls down on someone ,it will be your head and the inspectors on the block because you didn't bring it up to code and he didn't make you ,when it was apparent that the exposed old work was not up to current standards.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
I know back in 82 when i first started that we nailed standard pancakes to the ceiling (none ever fell that i know of ).As to what the code was back then i have no idea.We got away with lot's of stuff back when Hector was a pup(he died last year ).The problem you have is that while doing remodeling code violations will surface.The inspector can not turn his back to open violations
even if it isn't a circuit your working on.In this case your caught in the middle because you are installing fans.One must include in a contract a clause to cover hidden violations.Often remodeling is a T and M saved our butt many times.Opened a can of worms on a what was to be simple addition to a 1921 home in down town Tampa.After a complete rewire the owners now have a very safe home.Happy ending.
I know back in 82 when i first started that we nailed standard pancakes to the ceiling (none ever fell that i know of ).As to what the code was back then i have no idea.We got away with lot's of stuff back when Hector was a pup(he died last year ).The problem you have is that while doing remodeling code violations will surface.The inspector can not turn his back to open violations
even if it isn't a circuit your working on.In this case your caught in the middle because you are installing fans.One must include in a contract a clause to cover hidden violations.Often remodeling is a T and M saved our butt many times.Opened a can of worms on a what was to be simple addition to a 1921 home in down town Tampa.After a complete rewire the owners now have a very safe home.Happy ending.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
The key words in the NEC is when the box is the "Sole support" if you run your screws through the box into the wood truss or brace above the box then there is no requirment for a fan listed box.
And if you question it just look at the requirment when you have a fan that exceeds 70#s then it only allows it to be done this way. Just look 422.18 (B)
Now I have been told that the intent is up to 35# the box does not have to be listed for fans.
But when you exceed 35# it must be listed or means of support can not rely on just the box.
And the exception in 422.18 (B) does seem to say this. other wise whay would 422.18 (A) say supported in accordance with 314.23 and 314.27.
But that is where 314.27 (D) states that the box has to be listed when it is the sole support.
As for how long in the NEC I think it new to 2002 or not father back than 1999? as it has just been required since 2002 around here and our state adopts the lattest code cycle quick.
The key words in the NEC is when the box is the "Sole support" if you run your screws through the box into the wood truss or brace above the box then there is no requirment for a fan listed box.
And if you question it just look at the requirment when you have a fan that exceeds 70#s then it only allows it to be done this way. Just look 422.18 (B)
Now I have been told that the intent is up to 35# the box does not have to be listed for fans.
But when you exceed 35# it must be listed or means of support can not rely on just the box.
And the exception in 422.18 (B) does seem to say this. other wise whay would 422.18 (A) say supported in accordance with 314.23 and 314.27.
But that is where 314.27 (D) states that the box has to be listed when it is the sole support.
As for how long in the NEC I think it new to 2002 or not father back than 1999? as it has just been required since 2002 around here and our state adopts the lattest code cycle quick.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
96 NEC 422-18 a 35 and under shall be supported by outlet box's identified for such use and supported in accordance with sections 370-23 and 370-27
b over 35 independenly of outlet box
96 NEC 422-18 a 35 and under shall be supported by outlet box's identified for such use and supported in accordance with sections 370-23 and 370-27
b over 35 independenly of outlet box
eddycurrents
Member
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
All I was hired to do was pull a seperate feeder to each panel so each tenant will receive their own electric bill as apposed to their being 1 meter and the owner paying the electric bill. The existing fans werent even touched. I had no reason to even take 1 down until the inspector decided he wanted to make sure the boxes were fan rated. How are we as electrical contractors able to give competitve bids when a customer says this is how much money I have and this is all I want done. So now its my resposibility to bring the entire building up to code? The oven circuit is run in 8/2 aluminum with the bare wire used as a ground and a neutral conductor. The inspector didnt mention this, so why the fan boxes. To me the aluminum oven circuit is a bigger hazzard.
All I was hired to do was pull a seperate feeder to each panel so each tenant will receive their own electric bill as apposed to their being 1 meter and the owner paying the electric bill. The existing fans werent even touched. I had no reason to even take 1 down until the inspector decided he wanted to make sure the boxes were fan rated. How are we as electrical contractors able to give competitve bids when a customer says this is how much money I have and this is all I want done. So now its my resposibility to bring the entire building up to code? The oven circuit is run in 8/2 aluminum with the bare wire used as a ground and a neutral conductor. The inspector didnt mention this, so why the fan boxes. To me the aluminum oven circuit is a bigger hazzard.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
There is no way I can see how the inspector could make you do this no mater when the requirement was put in the code.
Unless there is some local fan box amendment the inspector can not make you fix the old stuff.
That said I would not tell the inspector about things you think are bigger hazards or you will be fixing those too.
To me this would be a big enough item to go over his head and get to the bottom of this.
30 boxes, even if you could manged an hour a piece that is a big chunk of time.
There is no way I can see how the inspector could make you do this no mater when the requirement was put in the code.
Unless there is some local fan box amendment the inspector can not make you fix the old stuff.
That said I would not tell the inspector about things you think are bigger hazards or you will be fixing those too.
To me this would be a big enough item to go over his head and get to the bottom of this.
30 boxes, even if you could manged an hour a piece that is a big chunk of time.
russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
This is not your responsibility unless there is a specific code requiring this anytime work is done in an old building.
At the very most this should be between the home owner and the inspector. It would be understandable to bring it up if a fan or two looked like they were hung bad. I think he's nuts.
This is not your responsibility unless there is a specific code requiring this anytime work is done in an old building.
At the very most this should be between the home owner and the inspector. It would be understandable to bring it up if a fan or two looked like they were hung bad. I think he's nuts.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
Your picture has changed considerably.The owner may have a problem with that inspector but your job ended at the feeds.Since they are not wiring fans ,receptacles or anything else ,i believe he has way over stepped his job.Would hate to think that if i went on a service call to a 50 year old house to replace a switch that i must bring the house up to code.At any rate if the owner must do anything (and i think not )it would be additional work and require another permit and contract.
Your picture has changed considerably.The owner may have a problem with that inspector but your job ended at the feeds.Since they are not wiring fans ,receptacles or anything else ,i believe he has way over stepped his job.Would hate to think that if i went on a service call to a 50 year old house to replace a switch that i must bring the house up to code.At any rate if the owner must do anything (and i think not )it would be additional work and require another permit and contract.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
What do you guys think of the non-metal nail-on j-boxes that are paddle fan rated?
I do not like the idea that the screws are "held" by these boxes.
Mike P.
What do you guys think of the non-metal nail-on j-boxes that are paddle fan rated?
I do not like the idea that the screws are "held" by these boxes.
Mike P.
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
P&S makes a nice fan rated nail-on, there's 4 ring shanked nails holding it in place and the screws go up through the box into a steel bracket. To prove there stablity to a co-worker I hung from one of them and did some chin-ups @ the time I was 200+. Them brittle boxes I'd be willing to bet i could rip off with one hand. I can't believe UL gave them a 35# fan rating.
The black steel city nail-on fan boxes (we call them BRITTLE BOXES )are crap. Where I used to work, we only used them in places that our state code required fans boxes, but they were likely to ever be installed. The company I work at now that's all we use.
P&S makes a nice fan rated nail-on, there's 4 ring shanked nails holding it in place and the screws go up through the box into a steel bracket. To prove there stablity to a co-worker I hung from one of them and did some chin-ups @ the time I was 200+. Them brittle boxes I'd be willing to bet i could rip off with one hand. I can't believe UL gave them a 35# fan rating.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: ceiling fan rated boxes
I prefer the L shaped gray plastic ones.The fan is supported by 2 ---1 1/4 screws into the stucture.They are fast and easy cheap and no grounding
I prefer the L shaped gray plastic ones.The fan is supported by 2 ---1 1/4 screws into the stucture.They are fast and easy cheap and no grounding
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