CH Breakers Turning Off

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iwire

iwire

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Hi all, I have a question for you from some co-workers.

Have any of you had trouble with any CH breakers switching themselves to off.

Not to the tripped position but to off.

Now I know these two guys and they are well trained electricians / IR certified gentlemen.

They tell me that they have watched it happen.

We have a CH Factory rep already involved and he is replacing the breakers.

But has this happened to anyone else?

For the time being can we go with the premise that this is happening as described. :)

Believe me I was quick to doubt their story but they are standing firm.
 
CH is my main brand. Do you happen to know what CH breakers these were? CH, CH? CH, BR? CH, CHB? Or some other model? Would be interesting to learn which particular CH variant it was. Were these old breakers, or relatively newly installed? Truthfully, I'm not sure if I've had this trouble or not. When a breaker trips, most end users don't differentiate between tripped and off. They just reset it. I havn't been on any calls for nuisance "turning off" or tripping of CH breakers that was related to the breaker in quite a long time. From time to time, I've had one trip when no fault or overload existed. Interesting. Makes me want to get one out of the truck, drill out the rivets, and see if I can examine it to see how it might be able to turn off instead of stopping at the trip position.
 
My experience with CH Breakers (the original, not the bought out Bryant style) is that they do not have a tripped position. The tripped position is off. I haven't had any problems with them. I am talking of residential breakers. Do not know about the larger bolt in or 480V.

Marc are you using the BR style because the Ch styles do not trip to a center position.
 
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Marc one breaker (the panel main) is a 600 Volt 400 amp frame with a 300 amp rating plug.

The panel is actually 208Y/120 but the main is a expensive 600 volt version with adjustments.

The other breakers are 'normal' two pole 50s and 70s of a 250 volt type.

I specifically asked them if they had to 'cock' the 400 when it shut off and they said no.

I can find out the breaker types, shortly.
 
The plug-in type CH breakers with tan handles do not have a "tripped" position, they merely switch off. This is the main reason I won't specify or use this brand. You have no way to tell if the breaker tripped out, or was switched off.

Case in point: Take a typical CH panel, with some breakers on, and some off. Trip one. Then when you look at the panel, you have no way of telling which one is the one that tripped. Can be very frustrating when trying to identify the offending circuit. Even their cheaper-cut BR series have a center-position trip indicating capacity.

The CHB bolt-on variety with gray handles go to the center position when tripped, so this does not apply to those.

As for the 600 Volt main, I don't have much experience with those. Maybe an overly sensitive setting?

Time to start using Square D .... :grin:
 
Can't say I've ever heard of this, but I agree with the rest that the CH style push-on breakers to not have a separate tripped position.

Mark
 
Bob thanks for starting this thread for me while I was out at the site the CH breakers are acting strangely.

The breakers in question are a Cutler Hammer KD3400F with a KT3300T trip unit. This is a 600 volt 400 amp frame breaker. This is a 120/208 300 amp service. The other breakers are BA style 1 pole 20 amp, 2 pole 20 amp, 2 pole 30 & 50 amp breakers.

All these breakers will go to the off position not a tripped position. I have a Drantez PX5 recording meter installed at the site. The breaker panel in question shut down with the meter in place. The meter recorded no voltage sags,swells, interruptions or transients to cause the breakers to even want to trip. Also the amperage readings were not abnormal either.

Any suggestions?

Al
 
kbsparky said:
The plug-in type CH breakers with tan handles do not have a "tripped" position, they merely switch off. This is the main reason I won't specify or use this brand. You have no way to tell if the breaker tripped out, or was switched off.

Case in point: Take a typical CH panel, with some breakers on, and some off. Trip one. Then when you look at the panel, you have no way of telling which one is the one that tripped. Can be very frustrating when trying to identify the offending circuit. Even their cheaper-cut BR series have a center-position trip indicating capacity.
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Maybe if we all labeled the panels like we are supposed to we could figure it out!LOL


Tom
 
captal said:
Any suggestions?
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Last year, I had a GE breaker do the exact same thing. I never did figure it out. Naturally, a new breaker with new rating plug solved the problem. It was frustrating for a while, because it did the lighting panel at a bank. Somthing I wondered about that breaker, and maybe about yours too.... will a breaker go to trip, or go to off if the rating plug is removed or becomes intermittant?
 
busman said:
... but I agree with the rest that the CH style push-on breakers to not have a separate tripped position.
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Yes, I was building to this, but you all cut me off at the pass. :cool:

At first, I mistakenly thought that the OP was referencing a 5 dollar plug-on breaker, when he was really talking about a 1200 dollar large frame breaker.
 
captal said:
Any suggestions?
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Two:

Abnormal internal temperature, possibly by poor contact with conductor, bus, or within the breaker.

Breaker is tripping at lower than rated current level; replacement might be best (not cheapest) test.
 
Another one of our service electricians replaced all the breakers in question on Tuesday. I was there Thursday night because the new breakers acted the same way as the orignal breakers.

This site was experiencing the same problem back in Aug 2006. It stopped for no explainable reason. Then started again this week.
 
captal said:
Another one of our service electricians replaced all the breakers in question on Tuesday. I was there Thursday night because the new breakers acted the same way as the orignal breakers.

This site was experiencing the same problem back in Aug 2006. It stopped for no explainable reason. Then started again this week.
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Oh, my. :confused:

This seems like a good time to call for on site factory support.
 
I seem to recall a thread at a different site talking about a similar sounding problem. Turned out it was being turned off by personnel looking to get some peace and quiet. Have you been able to completely rule out that it isn't being turned off by human hands, whether malicously or ignorantly?
 
Is this KT3300 an electronic trip OCP. I have a site with CH breakers having numerous trip issues (also non load related), we are trying to determine the issue.


What do you thing of the Dranetz PP5, I own several BMI and RPM units, I am looking at several different replacement options the Dranetz is at the top of the list right now.
 
brian john said:
What do you thing of the Dranetz PP5, I own several BMI and RPM units, I am looking at several different replacement options the Dranetz is at the top of the list right now.
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Brian I like the Drantez PX5 very much. I highly recommend the PX5. I had used a BMI 4400 in the past. The PX5 has a lot of superior features to it. It has much greater memory storage now.

Their tech support is very good. I have e-mailed one of their techs the file for this CH breaker site and he is reviewing it for me. What makes this standout is he is out of the office on a long weekend and has e-mailed me several times with different setups for the meter. There are not a lot of companies out there who have people like that.

Al

Fixed Quote
 
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Larry:

Basic test for what commonly is called nusiance tripping of circuit breakers would be FOP test (fall of potential) and measuring current, with a molded case circuit breaker this should determine thermal issues and overload issues. Thermal condition can be at the bus, interior of the CB, or on the load connection, have also had 20 amp CB with a 3 pole 60 on top and a two pole 50 below,both CB's were at or close to 80% of FLA ,the 20 amp had 10-12, but was tripping. We determined the two other CB's were resulting in sufficent heat to cause the 20 amp to trip.

Cap: I will most likely will purchase the Dranetz I am also considering purchasing several of the new Fluke 435 for load surveys. I spent all day on the web doing product research. I'd really like to find an inexpensive meter for load surveys that has a decent report writer.
 
Yes i have personally seen them go to the off position when they are tripped but i didn't really give it much thought at the time. I was in the final throws of a really tough residential remodel and my helper accidentally tripped a breaker when i went to reset it i noticed that it was in the off position. It also happened one time in a commercial setting when i was saving off wires in a commercial remodel and someone tripped a breaker and the same thing happened but im sorry i never bothered to look at the model number. I thought maybey it was and intended setting.
 
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