Chandelier chain - welded or open link ???

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msd

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I have a chandelier that weighs over 125 lbs. and was supplied with a light-weight chain with open (non welded) links 1/8" in diameter. I know that over time, the metal will migrate due to gravitational forces and the fixture will fall to the floor. The manufacture claims this will not happen, and refuses to supply a heavier gague chain that has solid (welded) links unless I can prove my case.

I have searched on this site, and the NEC however, I am unable to find anything relative to this issue. Can somebody please help me find a code referance or other supporing documentation. My job is subject to the rules of the 2005 NEC. The only thing I was able to find is Article 410.36 which states:

Design & Material
Luminaires.......shall be designed and assembled so as to secure reqisite mechanical strength and rigidity.

Is there something that specifically requires welded or solid links for fixtures over a certain weight?
 
If the fixture is listed, all components supplied with the fixture are part of the listing - including the chain. I would have no worries, just make sure your box/support is rated for the weight.
 
LJSMITH1 said:
If the fixture is listed, all components supplied with the fixture are part of the listing - including the chain. I would have no worries, just make sure your box/support is rated for the weight.
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That would be true, if the complete fixture is a listed assembly. Often a low buget manufacturer will use a single listed part in the fixture assembly and imply that the complete fixture is a listed assembly when it really isn't.
Listed or not, I would not use an open link chain to support a 125 pound fixture.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
That would be true, if the complete fixture is a listed assembly. Often a low budget manufacturer will use a single listed part in the fixture assembly and imply that the complete fixture is a listed assembly when it really isn't.
Listed or not, I would not use an open link chain to support a 125 pound fixture.
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I disagree.

If that were true, then the fixture would not be UL Listed in the first place. The pendant chain component that is supplied with the fixture, is part of the fixture's overall design. If the manufacturer supplied the fixture to UL to test and list, they would include this chain for the test, not a special welded version. UL's luminaire test specifically evaluates the luminaire supporting means to make sure it complies with the requirements.

If the chain is not appropriate for the design, then all liability rests with the lamp manufacturer. Assuming the UL Listing is valid for the manufacturer and model number, I would have no reservations as to its strength to support the luminaire load. BTW, the reason why I know this as a fact, is that I worked for a lighting manufacturer a few years back. I have a high level of confidence that IF the UL listing is valid, and the chain supplied is the one the luminaire was sent to UL with, the chain is fine.


If you really wanted to increase the safety factor (inexpensively), yet maintain the overall designed look, weave a 1/16" dia coated steel rope through the links and crimp on each end lug of the fixture. McMaster Carr's p/n is 3423T32. It will hold 480lbs. Use the crimp sleeve 3897T22 to make loops on each end. Many hardware stores will have similar cable that will easily support 150lbs or more, and have crimpers there to make your own loops.
 
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LJSMITH1 said:
I disagree.

If that were true, then the fixture would not be UL Listed in the first place. The pendant chain component that is supplied with the fixture, is part of the fixture's overall design. If the manufacturer supplied the fixture to UL to test and list, they would include this chain for the test, not a special welded version. UL's luminaire test specifically evaluates the luminaire supporting means to make sure it complies with the requirements.
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You didn't read what I said. I said that in many cases a low budget manufacturer will use a single UL listed part, with a UL label on that part, to imply that their product is a listed product. It would not be a listed fixture.

You are also assuming a lot when you say that the product that is submitted to UL for evaulation is the same product that you find in the store. Yes, it is required to be, but again, there are a lot of low budget manufacturers that do things like that every day. Look at the concern about counterfit electrical parts. These items appear to match the real parts on the exterior, including the listing mark.
 
LJSMITH1 said:
...........If that were true, then the fixture would not be UL Listed in the first place. The pendant chain component that is supplied with the fixture, is part of the fixture's overall design. If the manufacturer supplied the fixture to UL to test and list, they would include this chain for the test, not a special welded version. UL's luminaire test specifically evaluates the luminaire supporting means to make sure it complies with the requirements...........
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If cheap, imported stuff contains carcinogens, lead, and who know what else, who's to say they (Fu Wong Lighting) not have the proper chain on hand and slap a cheap chain in just to meet their shipping deadline?
 
I did read what you said, really! :)

We are talking apples and oranges here.

My basic assumption was that the UL listing is valid - meaning for the entire fixture. It is easy to check on UL.COM. Based on the OP comments, I have no reason to believe this is not the case. In fact, he contacted the manufacturer, and was told that it was the correct chain...

The manufacture claims this will not happen, and refuses to supply a heavier Gage chain that has solid (welded) links unless I can prove my case.
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If a listed product sold at retail is different from the one that was originally supplied for the UL Listing, the listing is not valid. The company should be immediately reported to UL. UL (and most NRTL's) take their listing integrity VERY seriously, and will do what it takes to get the product off the market as it becomes a liability and PR nightmare for them if they don't.

As far as your comment about counterfeit product, that is a concern with ANY listed product, and is a completely different subject.

Also, nowhere in MSD's OP does he state that the fixture is a low budget fixture. So you are assuming that it is because of an open link chain. I have seen many high end chandeliers costing a few thousand $$ with open link lamp chain.
 
480sparky said:
If cheap, imported stuff contains carcinogens, lead, and who know what else, who's to say they (Fu Wong Lighting) not have the proper chain on hand and slap a cheap chain in just to meet their shipping deadline?
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Is this discussion about counterfeit product? The guy said he contacted the manufacturer. Unless he is speaking directly with Mr Wong, in cantonese, I think the validity of that is not in question. :roll:

Open link lamp chain is not always considered 'inferior' by high end lamp manufacturers like Quoizel, Holtkoetter, Harmony Collection, Schonbek, etc.

I have worked with a few high end lamp designers in the past and these types of items (i.e. decorative hickeys, chain, sockets, 1/8IP threaded pipe, etc) are considered standard fare in the industry. When the proper component is selected, it will be acceptable for the application AND meet all Listing requirements.
 
480sparky said:
What would be the total cost to go to a lighting store and get some chain you know will support the weight?
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If its just one light fixture, and you really have concerns about how strong this fixture chain is, this may be the best idea so you can sleep at night, if this is a customer supplied light fixture it may not take too much to convince them to spring for a more solid chain.
 
good idea LJSMITH1 has about threading a wire rope through the chain for added support. Just remember, the force placed on a wire rope (or anything) by catching a falling object is several times the weight of that object. So make sure the cable is tight with no slack, and that the crimps are done properly with the proper tool. I would just use stainless wire rope, not coated (you have to remove the coating before crimping)

This does raise a question of liability though....if you install the fixture per mfgr instruction and it falls due to failure of the fixture (not the box you attached it to) then its on the fixture mfgr. If you modify the fixtures support by replacing the chain, adding wire rope, whatever, then its on you. So make sure it cant fall :)

If its in a seismic zone, I would want the structural engineer to sign off on whatever I did...
 
LJSMITH1 said:
I did read what you said, really! :)

We are talking apples and oranges here.

My basic assumption was that the UL listing is valid - meaning for the entire fixture. It is easy to check on UL.COM. Based on the OP comments, I have no reason to believe this is not the case. In fact, he contacted the manufacturer, and was told that it was the correct chain...
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I haven't seen anything that says this is acutally a "listed" fixture.
 
Still looking for a code referance

Still looking for a code referance

I think that this is indeed .....

a case of a manufacturer using a single UL listed part, with a UL label on that part, to imply that their product is a listed product.

A UL sticker is on the inside of a fixture canopy. The mounting hardware, chain and canopy came together in an unmarked bag seperate from the fixture. While the fixture is made of heavy gague metal, the canopy and fixture support hardware are light weight metal. Just like those typically supplied with fixtures that do not weigh more than 25 lbs.

On Monday I will check the validity of the UL number that I suspect may be fradulant. I will update this post with my findings.

Still looking for a code referace though.....................................
 
I don't think you are going to find a code reference. The best you will do is perhaps obtain the working load limits data sheet for the chain provided (from the manuf ?). (ie something like this: http://www.hpionline.com/chainproducts/WeldlessChain.htm#4 ) If not, maybe you can try load testing the chain yourself by loading the chain to 2 1/2 times the actual load (get your fat helper or boss to hang from it during lunch).
 
msd said:
I think that this is indeed .....

a case of a manufacturer using a single UL listed part, with a UL label on that part, to imply that their product is a listed product.

A UL sticker is on the inside of a fixture canopy. The mounting hardware, chain and canopy came together in an unmarked bag seperate from the fixture. While the fixture is made of heavy gague metal, the canopy and fixture support hardware are light weight metal. Just like those typically supplied with fixtures that do not weigh more than 25 lbs.

On Monday I will check the validity of the UL number that I suspect may be fradulant. I will update this post with my findings.

Still looking for a code referace though.....................................
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Give me the UL File number and manufacturer name. I will look it up. The file number is on the label and typically starts with "E".

As for the placement of the UL sticker, it is typically placed in the location where the electrical wiring is connected (with the exception of a floor or desk lamp). When I was making bath lighting, UL always had the sticker attached to the inside of the cover plate.

Most newer UL stickers are special holographic types, which are very difficult to counterfeit (but not impossible).

It is not industry standard to just UL list a canopy or component of a luminaire.
 
wireguru said:
good idea LJSMITH1 has about threading a wire rope through the chain for added support. Just remember, the force placed on a wire rope (or anything) by catching a falling object is several times the weight of that object. So make sure the cable is tight with no slack, and that the crimps are done properly with the proper tool. I would just use stainless wire rope, not coated (you have to remove the coating before crimping)

This does raise a question of liability though....if you install the fixture per mfgr instruction and it falls due to failure of the fixture (not the box you attached it to) then its on the fixture mfgr. If you modify the fixtures support by replacing the chain, adding wire rope, whatever, then its on you. So make sure it cant fall :)

If its in a seismic zone, I would want the structural engineer to sign off on whatever I did...
Click to expand...

The coating should be removed with a razor blade, but uncoated is good too. I was thinking that coated might be less 'shiny' than uncoated.

The length of the cable would be fairly taught, but not actually taking load off the chain. If the chain stretches, then the cable will take some load. This would not be considered a modification, but a passive addition.

I agree that any modification/replacement of a component supplied with the luminaire will most likely void the UL Listing (as ithe modification has not been evaluated by UL).
 
msd said:
I think that this is indeed .....

a case of a manufacturer using a single UL listed part, with a UL label on that part, to imply that their product is a listed product.

A UL sticker is on the inside of a fixture canopy. The mounting hardware, chain and canopy came together in an unmarked bag seperate from the fixture. While the fixture is made of heavy gague metal, the canopy and fixture support hardware are light weight metal. Just like those typically supplied with fixtures that do not weigh more than 25 lbs.

On Monday I will check the validity of the UL number that I suspect may be fradulant. I will update this post with my findings.

Still looking for a code referace though.....................................
Click to expand...

MSD

If it makes you feel better, I have personally seen 150lb+ crystal, 40 bulb chandeliers with open link chain supporting the entire fixture. The chain is more of a commodity than part of a designed component (like a canopy cover, or other decorative component). The lamp designer picks a lamp chain out of a catalog that will look good with the fixture, while meeting the load requirements.

Have you actually weighed this lamp on a scale fully loaded? Have you confirmed the 125# figure you are using? The reason why I ask is that when you get above 100#, the fixture gets very large. Can you supply a few pictures? I would love to see what it looks like.
 
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