Changed Conditions and NEC article 250-140 and exceptions

[Jslatt27]

I have been installing whole house generators with Service rated ATS's across 7 counties in Maryland since they first started making them.

Recently (2 months ago) I did 2 of these installations in one of these 7 counties mentioned. One installation passed Final inspection with ZERO issues the other installation FAILED final inspection!

Now please note, both installations are identical with respect to 200Amp service rated ATS's. ATS becomes the service and 200amp panel is now a sub panel. Both installations are in the same county, SAME INSPECTOR.

FAILED INSPECTION NOTE- Article 250-140. Dryer and Range must be changed to 4 wire, cord and plug replaced with 4 conductor cord.


Since we changed conditions by adding the Service rated ATS, the bare GROUNDED conductors on the OLD #6 SEC cable now have to be INSULATED per 250-140.

This counties AHJ wants new 4 wire pulled to these appliances and cord and plugs replaced.

IS THIS LUDACROUS !!?? I HAVE TO WONDER IF THESE INSPECTORS WERE EVER ELECTRICIANS.

THERE HAS TO BE A MORE SENSIBLE RESOLUTION TO THIS CODE UNDER EXISTING CONDITIONS. ????

 

[mbrooke]

Inspector is technically correct.


However, if I was the inspector and I knew you had to open walls to replace that cable I'd simply ask that the neutral be wrapped up in white tape at all visible points except where entering the neutral bar.

 

[tortuga]

There is many threads on this. If its impossible to replace the cable here is what I do;
The #6 SE cable is an existing installation your are not touching or altering it (very important)
**Per the old code the bare of the SE cable is allowed to be used for a neural to serve a non grounding type receptacle.**
Now the only new electrical installation you make is per NEC 250.130(C), you simply run a #10 or larger, to the receptacle and install a 4 wire receptacle.
And tape the bare of the SE cable white.

 

[Jslatt27]

Inspector is technically correct.


However, if I was the inspector and I knew you had to open walls to replace that cable I'd simply ask that the neutral be wrapped up in white tape at all visible points except where entering the neutral bar.

The inspector is correct I agree BUT... like you said, insulate the grounded conductor at the panel. I’ll go one better and pull the conductors out of the panel if they are accessible and rubber tape the entire bare conductor outside of the connector and re install.
Although the ATS has been installed, that bare grounded conductor is still the grounded conductor. The issue of voltage being introduced to grounding conductors and conductor paths via the grounded conductor could easily be remedied with a little tape. Not tearing peoples houses up to pull 4 wire to the appliances.

 

[Jslatt27]

There is many threads on this. If its impossible to replace the cable here is what I do;
The #6 SE cable is an existing installation your are not touching or altering it (very important)
**Per the old code the bare of the SE cable is allowed to be used for a neural to serve a non grounding type receptacle.**
Now the only new electrical installation you make is per NEC 250.130(C), you simply run a #10 or larger, to the receptacle and install a 4 wire receptacle.
And tape the bare of the SE cable white.

Thanks for your reply. I am going to appeal this AHJ’s decision

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Imo, you changed the current legal configuration of the panels, therefore you are responsible for changing the range and dryer to a 4 wire branch circuit. It became non-compliant when you did your work so you are responsible to correct it. Sorry

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Because something passes in one county or 10 counties it does not make it compliant. Either the other inspectors didn't think about it or they decided to let it go

 

[mbrooke]

The inspector is correct I agree BUT... like you said, insulate the grounded conductor at the panel. I’ll go one better and pull the conductors out of the panel if they are accessible and rubber tape the entire bare conductor outside of the connector and re install.
Although the ATS has been installed, that bare grounded conductor is still the grounded conductor. The issue of voltage being introduced to grounding conductors and conductor paths via the grounded conductor could easily be remedied with a little tape. Not tearing peoples houses up to pull 4 wire to the appliances.

Thats the only common sense way to do.

 

[Jslatt27]

Imo, you changed the current legal configuration of the panels, therefore you are responsible for changing the range and dryer to a 4 wire branch circuit. It became non-compliant when you did your work so you are responsible to correct it. Sorry

Thank you for your response however I disagree. Taping the grounded conductor is effectively “insulating it” from the “grounding conductors” both at the sub panel AND at the appliance. The conditions were changed but the code does not say that YOU MUST ADD a 4 conductor cable. It says the grounded conductor must be insulated AND can still be used to ground the frame of the connected appliance.
Taping the bare grounded conductor is insulating it

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You have every right to disagree. But think about it. What was a compliant installation is made non-compliant by your installation. Now you have to touch it or modify it. Once you touch it then you must make it compliant. Taping the bare wire does not separate it from the ground because as soon as you install the dryer the neutral and ground are connected together.

As mentioned running an extra equipment grounding conductor would be compliant if the inspector is good with it.

 

[Fred B]

Thank you for your response however I disagree. Taping the grounded conductor is effectively “insulating it” from the “grounding conductors” both at the sub panel AND at the appliance. The conditions were changed but the code does not say that YOU MUST ADD a 4 conductor cable. It says the grounded conductor must be insulated AND can still be used to ground the frame of the connected appliance.
Taping the bare grounded conductor is insulating it

Just a question, not condoning any particular means. How many wraps of simple electrical tape would be required to achieve insulation equivalent to mfg conductor insulation of 600V?

 

[Jslatt27]

Just a question, not condoning any particular means. How many wraps of simple electrical tape would be required to achieve insulation equivalent to mfg conductor insulation of 600V?
[/Q

You have every right to disagree. But think about it. What was a compliant installation is made non-compliant by your installation. Now you have to touch it or modify it. Once you touch it then you must make it compliant. Taping the bare wire does not separate it from the ground because as soon as you install the dryer the neutral and ground are connected together.

As mentioned running an extra equipment grounding conductor would be compliant if the inspector is good with it.

When the ATS was introduced into the equation, the conditions are indeed changed with respect to SERVICE/SUBPANEL or FEEDER PANELBOARD However. The grounded conductor of an existing circuit is permitted to be used to ground the frame of Ranges and Dryers provided all four conditions of 250-140, exceptions are met.

Exception # 3 The grounded conductor is Insulated when originating from a "Sub Panel". If it is TAPED inside the sub panel. It is INSULATED.

 

[mbrooke]

You have every right to disagree. But think about it. What was a compliant installation is made non-compliant by your installation. Now you have to touch it or modify it. Once you touch it then you must make it compliant. Taping the bare wire does not separate it from the ground because as soon as you install the dryer the neutral and ground are connected together.

As mentioned running an extra equipment grounding conductor would be compliant if the inspector is good with it.

Going by the literal interpretation of the code, 600 volt electrical tape would make it compliant:

 

[tortuga]

Good point mbrooke I had to read (3) three times to catch that OR.
We do allot of generator installs and kitchen remodels, and while older 'snake skin' romex is more common, I just make it standard procedure to convert to a 4 wire.

 

[augie47]

Have you discussed it with the inspector ?
I can't tell you how often I have discovered something a Code Article I had not been enforcing or perhaps he felt this would be an easy fix as compared with one requiring removal of wall cover.
As mentioned, it is a valid call. You need to discuss it with him/her.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Going by the literal interpretation of the code, 600 volt electrical tape would make it compliant:

Where in there does it say if you make the install non-complaint it is okay to leave it or something to that nature. If you need to change the receptacle out then you do not have to upgrade the wiring to the range or dryer. Again it would be an inspectors call as Gus, the inspector, stated....

 

[mbrooke]

Good point mbrooke I had to read (3) three times to catch that OR.
We do allot of generator installs and kitchen remodels, and while older 'snake skin' romex is more common, I just make it standard procedure to convert to a 4 wire.
View attachment 2555907
View attachment 2555908

Thats your plan?


I'd fight this one, the existing is better than trying to tap into the GEC. At least I hope thats your GEC and not a stray rod.

 

[mbrooke]

Where in there does it say if you make the install non-complaint it is okay to leave it or something to that nature. If you need to change the receptacle out then you do not have to upgrade the wiring to the range or dryer. Again it would be an inspectors call as Gus, the inspector, stated....

See exception 3- insulated. Taping it makes it insulated.

 

[tortuga]

Thats your plan?


I'd fight this one, the existing is better than trying to tap into the GEC. At least I hope thats your GEC and not a stray rod.

Yes its a GEC. The code says I can tap any available point.

The service was also upgraded from 100 to 200A and a new #4 ran to the waterpipe in a tight crawlspace with lots of fiberglass.
There is a #8 tapped onto the GEC. Per 250.130(C)
If the exterior groundrods or panel were closer i could have tapped there.
Could have ran a #10 but had that 8 in the van.

 

[Jslatt27]

Have you discussed it with the inspector ?
I can't tell you how often I have discovered something a Code Article I had not been enforcing or perhaps he felt this would be an easy fix as compared with one requiring removal of wall cover.
As mentioned, it is a valid call. You need to discuss it with him/her.

I have discussed it with the inspector. I have made corrections that they have required but i am appealing the decision to the county Electrical board of supervisors before i do anymore generator work in this particular county. They have interpreted this article WRONG. It is totally assinine for us as Electrical contractors to tell a customer

"Sure sir/mam, i can install your whole house generator BUT its gonna cost you an extra $1500 to $2,000.00 for me to re wire your existing 3 wire appliances to go along with it".