Changes to the 2017

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Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Spent the last 2 days at our annual code convention in Raleigh. I really enjoy it and there are so many changes- some very costly in the 2017 NEC-- NC will probably amend many of them as I hear there are over 40 amendments at this point. Some of these changes we have talked about and some not.... NC probably won't adopt this code until at least 2018 late or more likely 2019.

We missed having Roger here this year but we had another forum guy show up--- I looked at him and said "You look like a guy who might own an electrical forum". He smiled and we shook hands--I said "I am Dennis Alwon" -- a smile and then I said laughing-"Mike, I am the chief moderator of your forum ".... I finally got a rise out of him. Obviously, I didn't expect him to know me but it was great that he was there with Bryan (sorry, forgot his last name), a new member of the mike holt team. Of course, Bryan Holland was up with the big cheeses answering all the questions... It was good seeing them all- Now if Roger and Mike Whitt were there we could have had a great reunion... LOL

The biggest in terms of cost is the gfci requirement in all non-dwelling kitchens for both 3 phase receptacles up to 100 amps and single phase receptacles up to 50 amps-- at 150v to ground or less...


2108(B) said:
(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and three phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 100 amperes or less installed in the following locations shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Kitchens
(3) Rooftops
Exception: Receptacles on rooftops shall not be required to be readily accessible other than from the rooftop.
Click to expand...

They finally clarified how to measure the distances from sinks

210.8 said:
For the purposes of this section, when determining distance
from receptacles the distance shall be measured as the shortest
path the cord of an appliance connected to the receptacle
would follow without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, or fixed
barrier, or passing through a door, doorway, or window.
Click to expand...

They totally screwed up the peninsula countertop space. So instead of meaning to say that a receptacle at the wall can be used as the required receptacle for the peninsula they actually said that a receptacle must be installed along the long dimension of the countertop--- Isn't that where the doors and drawers are typically installed or the overhang for an eating area..... One at the end is technically not acceptable--- This is a big oops and I believe (Hope) most inspectors will not call this as written because it was not the intent.

210.52(C)(3) Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle
outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop long
dimension space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or
greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A
peninsular countertop is measured from the connected
perpendicular wall.
Click to expand...

There are tons of other changes which you can read here http://ecmweb.com/nec/2017-national-electrical-code-changes. You will need to sign up to the EC&M site which is free
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Spent the last 2 days at our annual code convention in Raleigh. ..
The biggest in terms of cost is the gfci requirement in all non-dwelling kitchens for both 3 phase receptacles up to 100 amps and single phase receptacles up to 50 amps-- at 150v to ground or less...
Click to expand...

Dennis did anyone clarify if the new GFCI language for "150 volts to ground" includes double-pole loads, or is it still just 1-pole 120vac.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
They finally clarified how to measure the distances from sinks
Click to expand...

So Dennis, puzzle me this. What was the consensus at your gathering re the undersink receptacle for a disposal. If the sink compartment has a door, is the receptacle behind that door now BEYOND the sink 6' GFCI requirement? That is, no GFCI required?
 
ramsy said:
Dennis did anyone clarify if the new GFCI language for "150 volts to ground" includes double-pole loads, or is it still just 1-pole 120vac.
Click to expand...

The 150v to ground just refers to phase to ground voltage and does not mean dp are exempt. The wording clearly states 2 phase and 3 phase receptacles.
 
al hildenbrand said:
So Dennis, puzzle me this. What was the consensus at your gathering re the undersink receptacle for a disposal. If the sink compartment has a door, is the receptacle behind that door now BEYOND the sink 6' GFCI requirement? That is, no GFCI required?
Click to expand...


The receptacle under the sink does not require gfci protection because the cord would have to pass thru a door.

For the purposes of this section, when determining distance
from receptacles the distance shall be measured as the shortest
path the cord of an appliance connected to the receptacle
would follow without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, or fixed
barrier, or passing through a door, doorway, or window.
Click to expand...
 
Dennis Alwon said:
He is still here on and off. He hasn't posted in a year but he sometimes emails Roger and myself about code adoption info in NC. Here is one of his last post http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=164009
Click to expand...

I knew I hadn't seen his name here in a very long time....... I remember seeing his posts a lot years ago; knowledgeable guy and a good asset to have here.


Also wanted to add, my local inspector said the other day it looks like GA is going to take the 2017 with no amendments.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Dennis Alwon said:
The receptacle under the sink does not require gfci protection because the cord would have to pass thru a door.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup: That's the same spin on this new language in 210.8 that is being said up here.

A cabinet door is a "door".

So the microwave / hood hung over the range right beside the sink cabinet, with a cord into the cupboard above gets to go into a receptacle without GFCI. But a receptacle above the cupboard cabinet top, and below the ceiling, if within the six foot measurement of the sink edge still does require GFCI.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
We missed having Roger here this year but we had another forum guy show up--- I looked at him and said "You look like a guy who might own an electrical forum". He smiled and we shook hands--I said "I am Dennis Alwon" -- a smile and then I said laughing-"Mike, I am the chief moderator of your forum ".... I finally got a rise out of him. Obviously, I didn't expect him to know me but it was great that he was there...
Click to expand...
Get him to buy you lunch at least. Chief Moderator don't pay much but it ought to be worth something.

There are tons of other changes which you can read here http://ecmweb.com/nec/2017-national-electrical-code-changes. You will need to sign up to the EC&M site which is free
Click to expand...

Nice link. Thanks.
 
al hildenbrand said:
:thumbsup: That's the same spin on this new language in 210.8 that is being said up here.

A cabinet door is a "door".

So the microwave / hood hung over the range right beside the sink cabinet, with a cord into the cupboard above gets to go into a receptacle without GFCI. But a receptacle above the cupboard cabinet top, and below the ceiling, if within the six foot measurement of the sink edge still does require GFCI.
Click to expand...

My branch circuits for the disposal are still going to have GFCI protection cabinet door or not. It is required to be on AFCI and it is less than $10 more for a "Duel Function" breaker so its a no brainer for me in the interest of safety.

A motor bolted to the bottom of a kitchen sink connected with a flimsy attachment cord with water everywhere...put the circuit on a GFCI guys. Code is the minimum.
 
The '17 408.3 (2) includes panelboards for barrier protection around service entrance now.

I'm unsure if we'll be seeing them here soon or not.....?

~RJ~
 
Dennis, hope everyone had the normal good time and I really missed being there, but now that I have moved I'll have to get my CEU's elsewhere.

Well, who knows, maybe I'll make it next year. :thumbsup:

Roger
 
roger said:
Dennis, hope everyone had the normal good time and I really missed being there, but now that I have moved I'll have to get my CEU's elsewhere.

Well, who knows, maybe I'll make it next year. :thumbsup:

Roger
Click to expand...


You're in Fla. wooooooo-- when did this happen.
 
shortcircuit2 said:
My branch circuits for the disposal are still going to have GFCI protection cabinet door or not. It is required to be on AFCI and it is less than $10 more for a "Duel Function" breaker so its a no brainer for me in the interest of safety.

A motor bolted to the bottom of a kitchen sink connected with a flimsy attachment cord with water everywhere...put the circuit on a GFCI guys. Code is the minimum.
Click to expand...

We went a very long time without these appliances being on a GFCI. I'd like to see the actual body count of people being shocked and killed by faulty garbage disposals before a blanket code rule is made.

In the case of commercial kitchens, there were documented cases of electrocution that led to the change that requires GFCI for all commercial kitchen receptacles. Why is the same logic not applied here?
 
romex jockey said:
The '17 408.3 (2) includes panelboards for barrier protection around service entrance now.

I'm unsure if we'll be seeing them here soon or not.....?

~RJ~
Click to expand...

I believe what the manufacturers will be doing is supplying boots that go over the lugs on the breakers. Of course, there is an exception for service panels with the 6 disconnect rule.

Canada had this rue for a long time but for some reason they block off the entire top of the panel which makes them install panels horizontally instead of vertically. Their panels cover the service conductors much like some meters/main panels do on the line side.
 
peter d said:
We went a very long time without these appliances being on a GFCI. I'd like to see the actual body count of people being shocked and killed by faulty garbage disposals before a blanket code rule is made.
Click to expand...

I prefer not to wait for the body count.

In the case of commercial kitchens, there were documented cases of electrocution that led to the change that requires GFCI for all commercial kitchen receptacles. Why is the same logic not applied here?
Click to expand...

That's enough logic for me...
 
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