Characteristics of Short Circuits

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ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Compare building power monitoring data to fire panel & sprinkler data, then compare time stamps.

In absence of monitor data, security cameras, or arson evidence, just look for impaled cables, or overheating from conduit-fill, derating, or listing violations; document and prosecute.

When the EC's insurance carrier refuses to pay, they may help reveal why the contractor was disqualified, criminal, and a liar; even if he wasn't responsible. ;)
 
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Billy_Bob

Senior Member
Location
Oregon
This one is obvious...

The story about this picture...
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/2008/5/Electrical-fire-GFCI.htm

Outlet-picture.jpg
 
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nakulak

Senior Member
why do you say this is obvious ? Couldn't this have been caused by a) a lightning strike b) a poco spike c) bad device or d) other ? (I read the article but it doesn't convince me of anything)
 
roger

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Posts 3 and 4 are your answers.

The use of the proper equipment, training, and methods would be hard to learn on an internet forum.

I would point out the forum rules here,
Rules, Policies, and Disclaimers

No information gathered from this web site shall be treated as being the opinion of an 'expert witness, and you do not have anyone's permission to present such information as evidence in any type of legal dispute.
Click to expand...


This is not meant to imply that you are looking for evidence or an expert witness, but I did want to mention it.

Roger
 
Fulthrotl

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Location
HB, CA (19 Hrs. 22 Min. from Winged Horses)
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E
Pierre C Belarge said:
I read the posted link. It sounds to me like the 2nd electrician came in and "fleeced" the owner. His comments are not that of a professional - gasketing is required - that is news to me.
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i'd agree..... gasketing? who are we kidding here? gasketing, in a bathroom?

if you look at the smoke path, it looks like the device cooked off pretty well.
a small amount of very dense smoke from burning plastic. i'll bet a nickel
that the source of ignition was within the GFCI, seeing how the smoke
volumn was small, dense, and exuded from the openings in the device.

a thousand dollars plus to change out a GFCI? it'd be interesting to see
what he actually did for that money. besides carry it away in a sack.

randy
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
Fulthrotl said:
i'd agree..... gasketing? who are we kidding here? gasketing, in a bathroom?

if you look at the smoke path, it looks like the device cooked off pretty well.
a small amount of very dense smoke from burning plastic. i'll bet a nickel
that the source of ignition was within the GFCI, seeing how the smoke
volumn was small, dense, and exuded from the openings in the device.

a thousand dollars plus to change out a GFCI? it'd be interesting to see
what he actually did for that money. besides carry it away in a sack.

randy
Click to expand...

Burning pvc releases chlorine gas he was just being osha compliant.
 
brian john

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
I do a lot of testing, site surveys and am asked many times to try to figure out what caused electrical explosions and or fires. What I have done is as Bob said HIRE A PROFESSIONAL. Besides the knowledge they bring to the table they are COURT experts and this alone makes them worth their weight in wirenuts (maybe more).
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
quogueelectric said:
Sure if you are a trained fire investigator. By the evidence. Why are you thinking about knocking someone off??
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The determination of which came first, the fire or the short, is something that is very very difficult to do and it cannot be done without some very expensive forensic testing of the ends of the conductors involved. Yes the evidence can point to the electrical short as the cause of the fire and in the absence of suspected arson that evidence would often be correct, but that is not proof that will hold up in court.
 
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don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
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gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
090111-1739 EST

The GFCI picture likely implies a failure within the GFCI. Two major possibilities. MOV failure, or trip coil remained energized.

If the GFCI is opened it should be possible to see which one or both of these devices failed if that was the cause of the smoke. The MOV could simply have been a defective unit, or a sustained overvoltage could cause it to fail. A trip coil failure most likely occurs if the SCR remains on. Again a component failure might cause this, or an adequate overvoltage.

See ELA's photobucket movie at
http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj22/transorb/?action=view&current=CoilMishap1.flv
and thread
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=104129&highlight=GFCI+coil+failure

.
 
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