Charlie Beck Gfci Question

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

brother

Senior Member
Location
"I have learned, in whatsoever STATE I am, therewi
This issue seems to be poppin up again and again. I ask for Charlie Beck because I was told he was from the Washington area.

Theres this lounge that they recently added some receptacles specifically for a (portable) microwave and they also put in a refrigerator. This is commecial, not residential. There is no sink.

Theres a debate on if the receptacles are suppose to be gfci. I say yes because the WAC 296-46B 210(2)(a) has a 'very broad' definition of what a 'kitchen is.
WAC said:
?For the purposes of NEC 210(8)(B), kitchen means any area where utensils,
dishes, etc., are cleaned or where food or beverages are prepared or cooked.?
Click to expand...
Whenever there is a disagreement between the NEC and the WAC, the WAC prevails.
http://www.lni.wa.gov/TradesLicensing/Electrical/files/currents/elc0812.pdf


There are others that say gfci is not required because the microwave is portable.

An example was given about a wet and dry bar that does not have a 'sink' and 'no permenant cooking facillities' and gfci protection was still required.

What is your opinion of this??
 
brother said:
This issue seems to be poppin up again and again. I ask for Charlie Beck because I was told he was from the Washington area.

Theres this lounge that they recently added some receptacles specifically for a (portable) microwave and they also put in a refrigerator. This is commecial, not residential. There is no sink.

Theres a debate on if the receptacles are suppose to be gfci. I say yes because the WAC 296-46B 210(2)(a) has a 'very broad' definition of what a 'kitchen is. Whenever there is a disagreement between the NEC and the WAC, the WAC prevails.
http://www.lni.wa.gov/TradesLicensing/Electrical/files/currents/elc0812.pdf


There are others that say gfci is not required because the microwave is portable.

An example was given about a wet and dry bar that does not have a 'sink' and 'no permenant cooking facillities' and gfci protection was still required.

What is your opinion of this??
Click to expand...



What code cycle are you under? In 05' 210.8 the 6' rule does not apply to "other than dwelling units". But, as you pointed out, they're required in commercial kitchen. A microwave is not considered "permanant provisions " for cooking food. I vote no gfi from the limited info given
 
I ain't Mr B; however, I gotta comment anyways. Per your link:

GFCIs Are Required For Dwelling Kitchens, But What If It?s Not Quite A Kitchen?

NEC 210.8 requires ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protection for personnel in a dwelling?s kitchen
where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces. But what if the countertop is in an
area that doesn?t quite meet the definition of a kitchen?

The National Electrical Code defines ?kitchen? in article 100. It says a kitchen is an area with a sink and
permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking. The new rules further define ?kitchen.? WAC 296-
46B-210(2)(a) says: ?For the purposes of NEC 210(8)(B), kitchen means any area where utensils,
dishes, etc., are cleaned or where food or beverages are prepared or cooked.?

This means a wet bar or a dry bar (with no sink) and no permanent cooking facilities is now considered a
kitchen, and GFCI protection is required for125-volt, 15- and 20-amp receptacles. Consider this new
language when installing receptacle outlets in these spaces.

I believe that your AHJ will have to decide. Your state, wrongly IMO, has a really broad definition on kitchen.

While waiting for Mr B's viewpoint you can out check these similar threads:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=122093&highlight=kitchen+sink

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=107339&highlight=kitchen+sink

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=79461&highlight=kitchen+sink
 
jumper said:
I ain't Mr B; however, I gotta comment anyways. Per your link:

GFCIs Are Required For Dwelling Kitchens, But What If It’s Not Quite A Kitchen?

NEC 210.8 requires ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protection for personnel in a dwelling’s kitchen
where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces. But what if the countertop is in an
area that doesn’t quite meet the definition of a kitchen?

The National Electrical Code defines “kitchen” in article 100. It says a kitchen is an area with a sink and
permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking. The new rules further define “kitchen.” WAC 296-
46B-210(2)(a) says: “For the purposes of NEC 210(8)(B), kitchen means any area where utensils,
dishes, etc., are cleaned or where food or beverages are prepared or cooked.”

This means a wet bar or a dry bar (with no sink) and no permanent cooking facilities is now considered a
kitchen, and GFCI protection is required for125-volt, 15- and 20-amp receptacles. Consider this new
language when installing receptacle outlets in these spaces.

I believe that your AHJ will have to decide. Your state, wrongly IMO, has a really broad definition on kitchen.

While waiting for Mr B's viewpoint you can out check these similar threads:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=122093&highlight=kitchen+sink

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=107339&highlight=kitchen+sink

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=79461&highlight=kitchen+sink
Click to expand...



Derek, I believe he said it's commercial,does that change your opinion?
 
brother said:
I ask for Charlie Beck because I was told he was from the Washington area.
Click to expand...
If I am going to be in such demand, that I think I will have to ask Mike Holt for a raise! :grin:
brother said:
There?s a debate on if the receptacles are suppose to be GFCI. I say yes because the WAC 296-46B 210(2)(a) has a 'very broad' definition of what a 'kitchen is.
Click to expand...
I agree with you, with one stipulation: There are some local jurisdictions that enact their own codes, and do not necessarily keep the NEC or WAC requirements intact. But for most of the state, once you establish an area in which food is to be cooked, you have a ?kitchen.?
WAC said:
?For the purposes of NEC 210(8)(B), kitchen means any area where utensils,
Click to expand...
WAC said:
dishes, etc., are cleaned or where food or beverages are prepared or cooked.?
Click to expand...
That is a change, a completely new sentence, from the previous WAC (i.e., the version enacted when this state adopted the 2005 NEC). Indeed, before Washington adopted the 2008 NEC, I used to advise the architects which whom I worked to carefully avoid showing the word ?kitchen? in a space intended to be a ?break room.? I might, or might not, have chosen to put GFCI receptacles in such a space, but I didn?t want the inspector to require them because the word ?kitchen? was on the plans.
brother said:
There are others that say GFCI is not required because the microwave is portable.
Click to expand...
All that the 2008 NEC has to say for non-dwelling units is ?kitchen,? and all the WAC has to say is that food is cooked. Portability of a cooking appliance is not relevant.
 
An employee work trailer with a microwave oven and sink is not a kitchen per the NEC. Mike Holt has a graphic showing this.Under the WAC it is.
I like the WAC rule, it clarifies what I consider a bad rule in the NEC.
 
tom baker said:
An employee work trailer with a microwave oven and sink is not a kitchen per the NEC. Mike Holt has a graphic showing this.Under the WAC it is.
I like the WAC rule, it clarifies what I consider a bad rule in the NEC.
Click to expand...

So in your opinion, a lounge that has a refrigerator and a portable microwave would be a kitchen under the WAC rule? Just trying to get opinions out there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top